I 100% agree with Terri---it was your kid's responsibility, and yours as her parent, to see that she was ready for the test. She had 3 extra weeks to prepare. Being mad at the teacher for giving the test when school resumed is not taking responsibility for her own actions. Laying the blame on the teacher for your daughter's lack of preparation is unfair.
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Some sage parenting advice needed
- Thread starter danielle
- Start date
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
I forgot to mention earlier...
anytime I participate in anything to do with kids and education, I like to put in a plug for a great book I read about a year ago. It is titled Last Child in the Woods (read more here - http://www.ahealthyme.com/topic/brnaturedeficit). It is not only about nature, although that is the biggest part. It is also about how humans learn and develop, and how unstructured time and unstructured architecture (such as nature) help us develop, and heal, and deal, with various problems as we mature.
I think that EVERY parent and EVERY teacher should read this book. I am even thinking about selling it on my site, along with my snake books. I will probably read it again one day, even though I don't have any kids.
anytime I participate in anything to do with kids and education, I like to put in a plug for a great book I read about a year ago. It is titled Last Child in the Woods (read more here - http://www.ahealthyme.com/topic/brnaturedeficit). It is not only about nature, although that is the biggest part. It is also about how humans learn and develop, and how unstructured time and unstructured architecture (such as nature) help us develop, and heal, and deal, with various problems as we mature.
I think that EVERY parent and EVERY teacher should read this book. I am even thinking about selling it on my site, along with my snake books. I will probably read it again one day, even though I don't have any kids.
wade
Save The Humans
I have a very open relationship with my kids. We could talk about anything. Really. Example. One night after we had gone to bed my son called. He said, Dad, I’ve got a little problem. OK? It seems he and his girl friend were playing in the bathtub. (He was 18 at the time) Somehow a bar of soap had gone up inside of this very sweet young lady that he later married. And they couldn’t get it out. It took me about 15 minutes to quit laughing and tell the story to his mom. Then we thought about it for a while and laughed some more, finally I suggested having her jump up and down. That didn’t work. Tongs from the kitchen. Didn’t work. Can I come help? NO. Long story short they finally got it out. That year for his birthday we gave him Soap-on-a-Rope.
I told my kids to never have premarital sex. But if it just had to happen come and tell me and I wouldn’t say anything but would make sure they got the proper protection and contraception. Now questions asked.
Years later my daughter said, Yeah right dad, like I was going to ask you for rubbers.
Kids won’t tell you everything.
I told my kids to never have premarital sex. But if it just had to happen come and tell me and I wouldn’t say anything but would make sure they got the proper protection and contraception. Now questions asked.
Years later my daughter said, Yeah right dad, like I was going to ask you for rubbers.
Kids won’t tell you everything.
desertanimal
2003 UB313
Soap?!? Whose idea was THAT?!? I think I'd have to give those two soap-on-a-rope for their anniversary until they had grandchildren. I would never be able to let them live that down.
danielle
New member
My mom kept a vase full of condoms on top of our fridge from the time we had our first periods,lol I didn't have sex until I was 18 so that vase and I were never friends, but your right no matter how open you are they will never tell you everything and thats okay with me.
Soap on a rope huh now thats a great gift and awesome story:roflmao:
Soap on a rope huh now thats a great gift and awesome story:roflmao:
danielle
New member
SRSB, When a child misses three weeks of school because of snow and vacation time they forget a lot. Her math book and review packet were at the school which was closed and some of the material on the test had not been gone over in class. This is the problem with montogomery counties curriculum and not in whole the fault of her teacher, but most certainly not the fault of the children who on the whole did poorly. The week they would have been taught a portion of the work they were not, and without a book and review packet studying was not an option. To come in on Monday to take a two day test to meet county deadlines without being properly prepared is horsecrap to me and obviously the principal agrees because a scheduled retake for the whole class is being given the 22nd of this month. The rate at which they move these kids forward is insane and the order at which concepts are taught baffles myself and other parents as well as many teachers. The county schools get money based on 1) the number of students in accelerrated classes 2) the schools standerdized state test scores, and 3) test scores on county unit curriculum tests. Teachers are forced to shove in as much as they can to please their administrators and raise scores to compete with other schools. Education in this fashion may make the schools much needed money, but it does a serious disservice to the children just trying to learn
Dinah
New member
I just wanted to second this as a great book!!
crackerhead
Hug Free Zone
Just for the record I was not saying that a test given after a long break was a prudent idea. I was trying to advocate responsibility on the child's part and not giving her an excuse for doing poorly. I'm fully aware of the political bureaucracy associated with schooling. Kathy said it well (or more her dad did) decisions about when to step in and make a fuss and when to ride it out should be made by the parent not the child. I believe strongly in standing up for what is right. It teaches the child to be a self actualized individual.
And BTW failing a test simply means the child doesn't understand the lesson taught. I have alway said that the grade doesn't matter, it's whether you retained the information in a usable form that success or failure should be based on. So if a good majority of the class is unable to pass a test after a three week break they never really learned the stuff to begin with. The US is famous for churning out students that "learn for the test" but couldn't tell you squat ten seconds later. Math is the easiest place to see this because everything builds on previous knowledge and practice is a big part of the skill.
Danielle, I only have one kid. So all my mistakes and successes happen at the same time. There are sooooo many things I'd change given the knowledge I gained along the way. One of the big ones (probably because I'm very type A) is don't freak out so much. Things that seem huge now are nothing compared to what comes later. Like with your daughter, the whole failing advanced math really doesn't matter. The lying, as you said, is a problem and probably should be your focus. There is nothing wrong with taking her out of the class and putting her where she is more comfortable. She might be feeling insecure because she's not as good at this as she has been in the past or with other subjects. As proud parents sometimes we unwittingly put emphasis on things that come back to bite us. Like, "Oh my kid's smart. She's in Gifted programs etc." We mean it with the best intentions. We're proud and want them to know it. Then she starts to struggle a little and the way she has defined herself in the world is slipping. (BTW third grade is usually when this first happens.Which is way most gifted program don't start until third grade or later) I'm guessing if she was able to articulate what she was feeling in that class it might be along those lines. When most academic things come easily to a person, it's tough when suddenly something does not. You've never learned how to fail or struggle for that matter.
I'm sure you're a good mom. I'm sure she knows that. You wouldn't be so frustrated if you weren't. Take a deep breath. And rant all you want! LOL
Terri
And BTW failing a test simply means the child doesn't understand the lesson taught. I have alway said that the grade doesn't matter, it's whether you retained the information in a usable form that success or failure should be based on. So if a good majority of the class is unable to pass a test after a three week break they never really learned the stuff to begin with. The US is famous for churning out students that "learn for the test" but couldn't tell you squat ten seconds later. Math is the easiest place to see this because everything builds on previous knowledge and practice is a big part of the skill.
Danielle, I only have one kid. So all my mistakes and successes happen at the same time. There are sooooo many things I'd change given the knowledge I gained along the way. One of the big ones (probably because I'm very type A) is don't freak out so much. Things that seem huge now are nothing compared to what comes later. Like with your daughter, the whole failing advanced math really doesn't matter. The lying, as you said, is a problem and probably should be your focus. There is nothing wrong with taking her out of the class and putting her where she is more comfortable. She might be feeling insecure because she's not as good at this as she has been in the past or with other subjects. As proud parents sometimes we unwittingly put emphasis on things that come back to bite us. Like, "Oh my kid's smart. She's in Gifted programs etc." We mean it with the best intentions. We're proud and want them to know it. Then she starts to struggle a little and the way she has defined herself in the world is slipping. (BTW third grade is usually when this first happens.Which is way most gifted program don't start until third grade or later) I'm guessing if she was able to articulate what she was feeling in that class it might be along those lines. When most academic things come easily to a person, it's tough when suddenly something does not. You've never learned how to fail or struggle for that matter.
I'm sure you're a good mom. I'm sure she knows that. You wouldn't be so frustrated if you weren't. Take a deep breath. And rant all you want! LOL
Terri
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
I hate being the only one who says something different but... it -can- be due to my inexperience...
However, I believe that if she reached the point of -swearing- that she did not do it... maybe you should believe her. Teachers -can- misunderstand a situation- just like anyone who is losing patience in the face of a loud classroom full of kids on a daily basis. The fact that you're on your daughter's side will be very meaningful to her I think.
I'd personally say that at this point I choose to believe her. If however in the future I find out that she lied, she would lose my trust altogether.
The "unknown component" of what it would mean to lose your trust will probably make her imagine all sorts of horrid scenarios and she will either give in and tell you- or she may not, which can indicate that maybe she indeed told the truth.
However, I believe that if she reached the point of -swearing- that she did not do it... maybe you should believe her. Teachers -can- misunderstand a situation- just like anyone who is losing patience in the face of a loud classroom full of kids on a daily basis. The fact that you're on your daughter's side will be very meaningful to her I think.
I'd personally say that at this point I choose to believe her. If however in the future I find out that she lied, she would lose my trust altogether.
The "unknown component" of what it would mean to lose your trust will probably make her imagine all sorts of horrid scenarios and she will either give in and tell you- or she may not, which can indicate that maybe she indeed told the truth.
danielle
New member
I saw the notes Oren and believe my heart sank knowing my honest angel was not so honest. I just spoke with the county dirctor about this gifted program to learn my daughters grades and test scores are still above average and they feel this one test should not raise my alarm bells. However, I am getting her in 20 minutes and have decided this program is her choice and not the schools. If she is or isn't feeling pressured may not be the point. I thought about the reasons I dropped out of college the first time and stress was not the issue- I wanted to play and had fun doing so. Now I look back and regret this decision some because I would be done with school by now myself, but at the same time what I learned by dropping out couldn't have been taught to me either. I eventually did the right thing and went back. I have one year left and a straight A record because this time around it meant something to me. She's 8 and too young to understand the lesson I learned decades after her so this decision is hers and I support it either way
wade
Save The Humans
I like Oren’s philosophy to trust and believe the kid. But I also know that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck a parent is naive to think that my child would never lie.
When I was a teacher and the whole class did poorly on a test, it was an indication that I did not teach the material. On a couple of occasions I threw out the whole test and we started over.
When I was a teacher and the whole class did poorly on a test, it was an indication that I did not teach the material. On a couple of occasions I threw out the whole test and we started over.
Teddy Roosevelt
i loev cronsankes
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS! When I was in elementary and middle school, the only reason I liked honors was because it had some of my friends in it and it pulled me out of regular classes. I didn't really learn anything better than the other kids except perhaps English. The math I learned before them, they all learn within a year or two anyways, at the same pace with the same content. When I realized this in high school, it started to lose it's appeal. Before I left the honors program my dad referred to all the normal level classes as "retard classes" or "special ed" (we did have real special ed classes, he just did this because he... well, hell if I know.) That put a ton of pressure on me, when I was starting to lose interest in the rapid-fire pace and competition, to keep slugging away in classes I felt deep down I was only continuing in to feel superior to others. I felt sincerely pissed when grades would come in and my friends in the "retard classes" had straight A's while I had C's and B's. But I felt like if I mentioned wanting out my dad would call me a retard or special ed. And to be honest, the content and learning pace compared to the honors courses is so much slower and less in depth they might as well be, when you're coming from high pace high content to the opposite. But I get straight A's now AND I get to listen to my honors friends give themselves knots in the back over the Honors Bio/English/Calculus/Nose Picking quiz they have that is 30% of their semester grade which they have two days to study for. It's not that I couldn't do the work if I still wanted to, I just stopped wanting to. The honors rat race is all to get into the best colleges, which doesn't matter if you've not got the money to pay for them.
Hypancistrus
New member
How old is the teacher??
Our mousetrap car project was due the week before break, which got snowed out. I SHOULD have made it due the day we returned, in theory, because they KNEW it was due the day before break and therefore if we don't have school those days they ought to know that it will be when they return.
In a perfect world, I don't buy the excuse that the teacher should have reviewed on the day after break because if a students knows the test will be on one day and school is cancelled, logic would follow that the test will be given the next school day, upon return.
That being said, it's not a perfect world. Students are irresponsible. They "forget." They are not logical sometimes. And if I choose to stick to my guns and say all projects are due the day we return and no later, I better be prepared to fail about half my students and deal with their complaining parents.
If I HAD to guess I'd say this teacher may be new, either to teaching or to teaching GT. Perhaps I am wrong and they are just a hard-@$$. Maybe they had a due date (our unit tests were due the week before break- I finished mine early, but there was mad scrambling among others)
There are a lot of factors that go into this.
I can only give you my experience as a teacher, as I am not a parent.
Your daughter will have teachers she does well with, who really click with her. She will have teachers she clashes with and doesn't get on with. Such is life. The fact that she is passing notes in the class would be my focus... if a subject is tough for you and if you aren't at the top of your game, why are you wasting academic time passing notes? I would focus on your daughters behaviors because that is the only thing SHE can control. She cannot control who her teacher is or when a test date is set, but she can control her behaviors and choices in class. If she knew that the test was to be given the week before break, she should have been prepared to take it. In the future final exams should be cumulative, so she should be working to master the ability to retain info, and not just "load and flush" for each test. She is in GT... more is expected from GT students with regards to effort and initiative than is expected from standard students.
Again, taken with a grain of salt, from point of view of a Maryland high school teacher who isn't a parent.
Edit to add: I am a huge fan of life lessons... I always try to keep in mind what I am teaching my students by sticking to my guns on certain things. In this case, there are numerous life lessons your child could learn: dealing with adversity, the value of listening and paying attention, and how to acknowlege and move on from a failure.
Our mousetrap car project was due the week before break, which got snowed out. I SHOULD have made it due the day we returned, in theory, because they KNEW it was due the day before break and therefore if we don't have school those days they ought to know that it will be when they return.
In a perfect world, I don't buy the excuse that the teacher should have reviewed on the day after break because if a students knows the test will be on one day and school is cancelled, logic would follow that the test will be given the next school day, upon return.
That being said, it's not a perfect world. Students are irresponsible. They "forget." They are not logical sometimes. And if I choose to stick to my guns and say all projects are due the day we return and no later, I better be prepared to fail about half my students and deal with their complaining parents.
If I HAD to guess I'd say this teacher may be new, either to teaching or to teaching GT. Perhaps I am wrong and they are just a hard-@$$. Maybe they had a due date (our unit tests were due the week before break- I finished mine early, but there was mad scrambling among others)
There are a lot of factors that go into this.
I can only give you my experience as a teacher, as I am not a parent.
Your daughter will have teachers she does well with, who really click with her. She will have teachers she clashes with and doesn't get on with. Such is life. The fact that she is passing notes in the class would be my focus... if a subject is tough for you and if you aren't at the top of your game, why are you wasting academic time passing notes? I would focus on your daughters behaviors because that is the only thing SHE can control. She cannot control who her teacher is or when a test date is set, but she can control her behaviors and choices in class. If she knew that the test was to be given the week before break, she should have been prepared to take it. In the future final exams should be cumulative, so she should be working to master the ability to retain info, and not just "load and flush" for each test. She is in GT... more is expected from GT students with regards to effort and initiative than is expected from standard students.
Again, taken with a grain of salt, from point of view of a Maryland high school teacher who isn't a parent.
Edit to add: I am a huge fan of life lessons... I always try to keep in mind what I am teaching my students by sticking to my guns on certain things. In this case, there are numerous life lessons your child could learn: dealing with adversity, the value of listening and paying attention, and how to acknowlege and move on from a failure.
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
Maybe I live in a different society but it strikes me odd that a teacher would keep notes to show to the parent... passing notes is not an uncommon activity.
Along with the vehemence of your daughter.
Look, regardless of the eventual realization that she lied, had you initially supported her rather than immediately taking the teacher's side(if you try and look at it from your daughter's point of view)- maybe she would have confessed it...
I think it may have made a difference, but I could be wrong.
Along with the vehemence of your daughter.
Look, regardless of the eventual realization that she lied, had you initially supported her rather than immediately taking the teacher's side(if you try and look at it from your daughter's point of view)- maybe she would have confessed it...
I think it may have made a difference, but I could be wrong.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
That was my first thought, too, Oren (wondering if she really was guilty). But then I reread this:
"...told my daughter I would be disappointed if she made a mistake and wasn't honest with me while telling her teacher to save these notes so I could bust her with evidence. It didn't take but two days for the teacher to produce 2 notes in which my daughter was asked about, lied to me, and then crumbled when I pulled them out of my pocket..."
Sounds like the teacher was asked to save them, and the daughter acted like she knew she was busted when she saw the notes. I assume that the handwriting was ID'd by mom, too, so there is no question of guilt? And it sounds like this happened right at the beginning, too. If all of this is true, then there was no time, really, to support the girl due to lack of evidence of lying.
"...told my daughter I would be disappointed if she made a mistake and wasn't honest with me while telling her teacher to save these notes so I could bust her with evidence. It didn't take but two days for the teacher to produce 2 notes in which my daughter was asked about, lied to me, and then crumbled when I pulled them out of my pocket..."
Sounds like the teacher was asked to save them, and the daughter acted like she knew she was busted when she saw the notes. I assume that the handwriting was ID'd by mom, too, so there is no question of guilt? And it sounds like this happened right at the beginning, too. If all of this is true, then there was no time, really, to support the girl due to lack of evidence of lying.
whippet
Tara
I just have to stick my nose in for one second...oh yes she certainly does! Believe me, your body language alone when she mentions the teacher would be enough. You don't have to say one word around her. Humans and kids in particular are very very good at reading people. Trust me...she knows.
And yes, the teacher was a bit over the top at giving the test right away, but a boss at work would do the same later in life.
I would actually try to find out why she excels in other subjects but struggles with math. The note passing could easily be because she is ashamed to be failing. I was much the same in school. Very good in every class..but failing math. I had problems with my numbers switching places, and so wrong answers were very frequent. I was however good at most other things (don't talk to me about gym). She may need to do that tutor and find a learning style that works for her.
And on that note...I need to get into class myself. (speech...ugh)
Good luck!~
Emily1188
Smells Like a Rat
Lol, I was thinking exactly what Tara was... Kids are like dogs, they can smell it.
I don't think it's always bad though... I went through a period in 6th grade where a teacher showed blatant dislike for me as compared to every other kid in the class. If my mom hadn't supported me then... I don't know what I would have done. I realize that's not the same, but if the teacher is treating her unfairly, supporting her is good.
At this point, it sounds to me like even if she knows you don't like the teacher, she also knows you're gonna drive a hard line - so I don't think your dislike of the teacher is going to be a huge issue. You don't seem like a parent to be played.
In fact, you seem like a really good parent any kid would be lucky to have, and as a non-parent, all I can tell is to hang in there.
I don't think it's always bad though... I went through a period in 6th grade where a teacher showed blatant dislike for me as compared to every other kid in the class. If my mom hadn't supported me then... I don't know what I would have done. I realize that's not the same, but if the teacher is treating her unfairly, supporting her is good.
At this point, it sounds to me like even if she knows you don't like the teacher, she also knows you're gonna drive a hard line - so I don't think your dislike of the teacher is going to be a huge issue. You don't seem like a parent to be played.
In fact, you seem like a really good parent any kid would be lucky to have, and as a non-parent, all I can tell is to hang in there.
danielle
New member
Well she got a B in math first quarter and so far had an A before this test. If the teacher had returned the review packets she was to grade and the kids were allowed to bring their book home that day I would have told my daughter to suc it up believe me. We have a study schedule that is pretty strictly adhered to, but like I said these packets were collected and they aren't allowed to bring books home on nights when math HW is not assigned. So for three weeks these kids had no book or packet to study from.
Oren I did believe her at first hence why I asked for evidence before punishing her, but it was clear my buttheaded daughter had done the deed. So today I pick her up and she thought about what I said about how much the truth means when we make mistakes. She spilled all on her own, went to her room and did a perfect job on her homework, and then we talked about her program. I told her she could go to on level and I wouldn't be disappointed at all. Tomorrow we are going to talk to her teacher who btw already told me she won't sign the paper to recommend this and the principal. My daughter only wants to be assigned on level math and remain in the program for her other subjects. I know two other kids do this so hopefully all will go well and if not my uncle works for the county,lol The teacher isn't new to teaching but taught middleschool before and this is her first year of 8 year olds so I know she is probably learning a lot herself.
The deal is my daughter has to grade herself daily honestly, talk about her mistakes, and improve or maintain appropriate behavior each day or is automatically grounded with extra chores. On days she earns freedom she'll get it, and otherwise additional playtime will be scheduled in. I want her to be happy not a genius by 8. She has many years to learn to appreciate her education and she can still take honors classes as they are not part of the GT curriculum
Oren I did believe her at first hence why I asked for evidence before punishing her, but it was clear my buttheaded daughter had done the deed. So today I pick her up and she thought about what I said about how much the truth means when we make mistakes. She spilled all on her own, went to her room and did a perfect job on her homework, and then we talked about her program. I told her she could go to on level and I wouldn't be disappointed at all. Tomorrow we are going to talk to her teacher who btw already told me she won't sign the paper to recommend this and the principal. My daughter only wants to be assigned on level math and remain in the program for her other subjects. I know two other kids do this so hopefully all will go well and if not my uncle works for the county,lol The teacher isn't new to teaching but taught middleschool before and this is her first year of 8 year olds so I know she is probably learning a lot herself.
The deal is my daughter has to grade herself daily honestly, talk about her mistakes, and improve or maintain appropriate behavior each day or is automatically grounded with extra chores. On days she earns freedom she'll get it, and otherwise additional playtime will be scheduled in. I want her to be happy not a genius by 8. She has many years to learn to appreciate her education and she can still take honors classes as they are not part of the GT curriculum
wade
Save The Humans
Danielle, I’m a math geek, I can do ciphers and everything. You know my sums and divided bys. Some aspects of math are harder to grasp than others, like making the transition from addition to multiplication. I can’t remember where 8 year olds are at. But it may very well be that she is having difficulty with this year’s math and will do great next year when the subject is changed.
It is also very left brain right brain when it comes to math. Math scholars are notoriously bad spellers. (That’s me) You rarely see a kid excel in math and also history or English. So that may play a part as well.
Also keep in mind we are talking about an 8 year old, not a hardened criminal. The most horrible thing in the world may be to disappoint her mom. That will make a kid do all kind of things to avoid being caught.
I think you did great. Good on you!! Can’t wait till she brings home her first serious boy. My daughter is dating a guy we call P.O.S. Your daughter will date him too.
It is also very left brain right brain when it comes to math. Math scholars are notoriously bad spellers. (That’s me) You rarely see a kid excel in math and also history or English. So that may play a part as well.
Also keep in mind we are talking about an 8 year old, not a hardened criminal. The most horrible thing in the world may be to disappoint her mom. That will make a kid do all kind of things to avoid being caught.
I think you did great. Good on you!! Can’t wait till she brings home her first serious boy. My daughter is dating a guy we call P.O.S. Your daughter will date him too.