BUF gene

[TandJ]

I bred it to caramel and it produced a pure black corn with a white stripe....that's why no one wants to admit to this breeding...just too cool of a morph :sidestep:

I gotz me a white one with a black stripe..*LOL*

I really need to make an effort to look at Slag's posts.. I know I am forgeting something I seen there that made me go ah ha....

I have no vested intrested in holding any water for most of the clowns I encounter, no matter the size of the fish, no matter the clowns opinion of me.. Independant, of the Corn Snake Gods and Peons! *lol* Believe me, I appreciate the solitare ways of the desert.

Ole Slag, I admire the guy really, has tried to prove his point.. If I could have, I would have loved to gotten my mitts on a few of these just to try to figure out for myself, and post the findings unbiased..


Yeah, there are some people *coughs and laughs* that figure I am about as smart as their shoe, and would practically invalidate anything I have had to say.. However, I don't care, thats thier problem, and quite frankly its a semi sadistic pleasure for me being the pain in their butts on the occasional basis..


I figure if something I post intriques them so much , I must have hit a soft spot and irritated them, even when things are not totally conclusive.. I certainly don't have it all figured, but I am certain if I go back to read some of the last few threads Slag posted here on it, it should pop up obvious for me.. Yeah, my memory can be that bad if I didn;t think things were or are overly important to me.. Heck, I don't remember much about the movies I recently seen, or some of the books I have recently read..



Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[Susan]

Wow...just wow...

I tried at one point to make sense of the whole buf thing, but reading slangenbroed's posts and website just gives me headaches. The language barrier and just how he writes only adds to the confusion.

As I see it, if buf is actually het caramel, breeding to a caramel will not prove anything as you'll still get normals, caramels and het caramels, some which will look like bufs and some that don't, which is what you get anyway as not all known het caramels look like het caramels and is exactly the same results that one would get if buf IS a new gene that is dominant to wild type and you happen to use a het specimen. Buf needs to be bred, if it hasn't been, to a normal, not het for anything. Those offspring need to be bred together, to another normal with no hets as well as to a caramel and a het caramel and all the results compared to even start to determine if buf is a new gene, if that can even be determined with those results. I have no idea if any of this has been done, or if anyone even gives a darn anymore. I know I don't.

 

[kathylove]

Chuck did reply to me last night.

He said there was a lot of data and lots of crosses - more than most new morphs have shown in order to be considered "proven". He sent me a fairly long email with a couple of links that he said will help explain it. I am in the middle of something right now, and can't read everything this moment. But I will at least post the links once I have a chance to read through them and have an idea of what I am posting / linking to. I can't give any more details until I get a chance to read it myself. I hope it will help to clear up some of the questions - will know more after I read it later.

 

[wstphal]

Thanks Kathy! Information is always good. I for one will want to peruse it just to further my understanding.

 

[Rich Z]

this is what I have from someone more familiar with the project than I am. Bug came out of normals.

Buf bred to caramels gave caramels AND Bufs.

proving Buf was HET caramel, but not caramel. And I guess crosses were made that shows they are not alleles but seperate genes. Because there was no intermediate when the Buf to Caramel breeding was done.

I wish I knew more, but I do not. This is all word of mouth information, but then, hasn't most of the information we have done that way?

If the gene works like the Ultra gene does, you would see animals that are half way between Caramel and Buff. The amel gene would just make some butters and amels in the mix IF Buf were het caramel.

the original Buf WAS het for caramel as I understand it.

But it produced Caramels AND more Bufs.

OK, let's step back a bit and look at the stated evidence without all the other stuff surrounding it.

If you breed Ultramel to Amel, what do you get? Ultramels AND Amels.

If you breed Ultramel to Ultra, what do you get? Ultramels and Ultras.

So if Buf was bred to Caramel and produced Bufs and Caramels........

Anyone else want to continue this thought to it's possible logical conclusion? :grin01:

I'll give you a hint.... Perhaps part of the equation hasn't been identified and isolated yet.... It really wasn't until the GoldDusts were produced to draw attention that something different was taking place that Ultra was even hypothesized.

As an aside, the possibility of one or more genes that weren't phenotypically expressed that could cause "Ultramel-like" results when combined with others used to give me cold sweats at times... I saw several unexplainable results that really COULD have been explained that way.

 

[Caryl]

He said there was a lot of data and lots of crosses - more than most new morphs have shown in order to be considered "proven". He sent me a fairly long email with a couple of links that he said will help explain it. I am in the middle of something right now, and can't read everything this moment. But I will at least post the links once I have a chance to read through them and have an idea of what I am posting / linking to. I can't give any more details until I get a chance to read it myself. I hope it will help to clear up some of the questions - will know more after I read it later.

Thanks so much!!

Thanks Kathy! Information is always good. I for one will want to peruse it just to further my understanding.

Me too. I've spent a lot of time on this and definitely want to understand whatever's out there.

 

[chuk_138]

So as a newbie (somewhat), what is the general consensus between our community? Is buf a new morph or not? I have read and re-read this thread for days now and still no conclusive answer. I looked at the links and all that was visible to me was an orangey snake or two. I don't want an argument, just a general perception from this group. If I understand what most of the members are trying to get across, until it is crossed to a caramel no hets and a normal no hets, it won't be fully considered by this community? I can agree with that.

 

[kathylove]

Chuck posted a condensed (and a bit easier to follow) version of the info which led him to decide to list Buf in the Morph Guide. You can read it for yourself and make your own decision. Or you can post more questions or comments if you wish. It is here:

http://.com/forum/showthread.php?p=65388

There are other threads / sites by the original parties involved, but I have only glanced at them so far. They are:

http://www..com/forum/showthread.php?p=58980#post58980

And from the breeder (in German and English):

http://home.tiscali.nl/~sb085434/lutino.htm

Hope it helps people to come to their own decisions.

 

[bitsy]

I don't believe there's consensus yet - certainly doesn't appear so from this thread. Hopefully the info that Kathy will post shortly* will help.

Edited: ^^ just posted!

 

[kathylove]

The first links don't seem to work. It is possible that they may be blocked on CS. If that is true, then you will have to email me at [email protected] for the links if you want to read them. Please email rather than p.m. as it is easier for me.

 

[wstphal]

Kathy, those links don't look right: "www..com" looks messed up. Did it look normal when you typed it?

 

[kathylove]

Yes, you are right...

please see my previous post.

 

[paulh]

OK, let's step back a bit and look at the stated evidence without all the other stuff surrounding it.

If you breed Ultramel to Amel, what do you get? Ultramels AND Amels.

If you breed Ultramel to Ultra, what do you get? Ultramels and Ultras.

So if Buf was bred to Caramel and produced Bufs and Caramels........

Anyone else want to continue this thought to it's possible logical conclusion? :grin01:

Lets say that the buf has a buf mutant gene paired with a normal gene and a normal gene paired with a caramel mutant gene. If that buf is mated to a caramel and they have 17 babies, then there is a 99% probability that at least one of the babies looks normal. So how many babies were there, and were there any normals among the babies?

Ways to get only buf and caramel babies:
1. The buf has buf and caramel genes as above. But the two loci are closely linked and the buf gene is in one chromosome while the caramel gene is in the other chromosome. Sooner or later a normal baby would be produced, but it might take more babies than without linkage.

2. The buf has a buf mutant gene paired with a normal gene and two caramel mutant genes. If so, what does a snake look like if it has a buf mutant gene but lacks caramel mutant genes?

3. The buf mutant gene is paired with and is dominant to the caramel mutant gene.

4. The buf mutant gene is paired with and is codominant to the caramel mutant gene.

I want more data.

 

[TandJ]

I want more data.

Here here..

I need to go and look at the last few threads Jan posted here.. There was something there I remember seeing that turned a light on for me.. I did not follow these threads to deeply, but I remember them being intresting and intriquing.. I really need to reread them...

I would have liked to have gotten a few animals out of this, but finances and an Ocean crossing makes it unrealistic to me...

Regards.... Tim of T and J

 

[kathylove]

Nobody has emailed me for the links, but I have them if you want them.

 

[mike17l]

I want more data as well. I would also like to hear from someone who has actually done a buf cross of any kind. Right now everything appears to be hearsay.

One reason that I do not trust chucks word is, he is writing a book, that is updated and sold every year. It is advantageous for him (book sales) if he claims something is new every year.

I would like to hear from someone who has nothing to gain, and has actually done a cross.

 

[Nanci]

I want more data as well. I would also like to hear from someone who has actually done a buf cross of any kind. Right now everything appears to be hearsay.

One reason that I do not trust chucks word is, he is writing a book, that is updated and sold every year. It is advantageous for him (book sales) if he claims something is new every year.

I would like to hear from someone who has nothing to gain, and has actually done a cross.

I'm not trying to argue with you Mike. But the whole value of the book is based on the integrity of the author. If Chuck does not verify facts before publishing, we may as well be reading fairy tales. I would like to believe that he takes great care in verifying the data. The book is worthless if he does not. What makes "buf" more suspect than any other new gene, aside from the somewhat cryptic history of testing?

 

[Noe..gr]

Ok,I think Chuck has answered some questions in a thread at the other place.

 

[Caryl]

Nobody has emailed me for the links, but I have them if you want them.

I just did - though I won't have a chance to read them until the weekend.

Thank you, Kathy. :bowdown:

 

[Snakexperience]

Wow this is really interesting!

At first the entire Buff thing didn't interest me the slightest bit. That together with Jan having difficulties expressing himself in the right terms made me even less interested, i even rejected the whole new-gene thing from the beginning.

Then i started following his threads and tried to understand it.
He letterly bred it to EVERY gene he had in stock. Among those were plenty animals that had the caramel gene and animals that didnt have that.

Over and over he got the same on-and-off results, results of a co-dominant trait. 50% Buff every breeding.

He got that same effect from breeding F1's to eachother and to known Buffs.

But seriously, the gene itself is not the issue here..

From the start there has been problems which i will sum up here.

- A dutch guy comes out of nowhere, with a bad english accent in writing.

- This dutch guy claims to have found a new gene

- Even worse, he has given it a name! What was he thinking!

- Then more bad communication, no one really understands what he is
saying, except for some other non-americans.

- He starts breeding it to ALL genes he has in stock, also the favored homozygous caramel animals, which was not a good thing because they were homo amel too and therefore not homo caramel enough.

- He makes a table of breedings and results which no one understands, but which concludes all neccessary to find out its a dominant trait.

- Finally one of the persons who DOES understand genetics and how the story went decided to put it in HIS book of genetics and discovered traits.

I guess that when Don, Rob or Jeff had discovered and published this gene it would have been a totally different story.

When KJUN brought out the Tessera trait last year EVERYBODY was drooling over that, i'd like to see some inside info about that one really bad now..
Or whatabout diluted.. or terrazzo.. or coral..

Jan did everything he could to test the animals and gave everyone that was interested ALL his data, which cannot be said of most breeders.

I really wonder what all of you who disagreed with Jan would have done to test what was discovered..

Anyway, this thread has become exactly the reason why i dont come here anymore, it's all about status and wether you like or dislike people, really pathetic and so not how things should work in our hobby.

I will probably get a lot of criticism, but frankly i dont give a .
Things are what they are, even if it's determined or revealed by people that are not popular among the masses.

Arjan