The humanity of shoebox keeping?

[Carinata]

I often wonder if my snakes actually enjoy the tubs and the shoeboxes. After all they were not designed to sit in shoeboxes all day. The all eat and grow. No issues but I feel like they deserve better, I mean I would love to have all my animals in Vision cages on a wall. Sliding doors and everything but I know it is more practicle to use shoeboxes and sweater boxes. I can get 4 racks with heat and thermo for 1000 this year. It is close to that per vision cage. Opinions, thoughts?

 

[ZoologyGirl]

My thoughts are that most snakes instinctively search out for the basic 'needs' in life.

Food
Water
Shelter (heat, cover, etc...)
Breeding

As long as as the snakes needs are met, I don't think they care what they are being housed in, as long as it is a good size (obviously you're not going to keep a fullgrown corn in a 6 qt shoebox).

In the wild snakes move around from place to place in order to find these basic needs. However, this leaves them open to predation. When their needs are met in the wild, they probably won't be roaming, because roaming increases being seen and caught. If we are supplying their needs, then they also don't risk the theoretical predation. So I'm guessing they are just fine, and in most cases it is our own anthropomorphic ideas that are intrusive. Just have to make sure you don't make your snake into a fatty if they are getting less exercise.

This is what I think, at least.

 

[Roy Munson]

Skittish snakes may like more opaque enclosures/environments.

 

[v_various]

Personally, not something I would do. All my snakes have the ability to watch me, and structures to climb on. They all do both, so they must like it.

That being said, you could always do better for your snake. I feel bad I can't give them more room, if I could give them more room I would still feel bad about not giving them even more room. I do what I can and hope they are happy.

(I'm actually in the process of upgrading Amel Boys tank, since he got so huge I don't feel good about just 33 gallons)

 

[wade]

My thoughts are that most snakes instinctively search out for the basic 'needs' in life.

Food
Water
Shelter (heat, cover, etc...)
Breeding

As long as as the snakes needs are met, I don't think they care what they are being housed in, as long as it is a good size (obviously you're not going to keep a fullgrown corn in a 6 qt shoebox).

In the wild snakes move around from place to place in order to find these basic needs. However, this leaves them open to predation. When their needs are met in the wild, they probably won't be roaming, because roaming increases being seen and caught. If we are supplying their needs, then they also don't risk the theoretical predation. So I'm guessing they are just fine, and in most cases it is our own anthropomorphic ideas that are intrusive. Just have to make sure you don't make your snake into a fatty if they are getting less exercise.

This is what I think, at least.

I agree with Heather. 100%

Enjoyment requires a certain amount of intelligence. I don't think snakes are smart enough to enjoy themselves. I don't think they are smart enough to be bored. I think they know when they are hungry or cold and that is about it.

 

[Nanci]

That's why it's called Lab Animal Standard. It provides the basic needs that keep the animals healthy- no more, no less. I prefer to provide a more enriched environment, although who knows if they appreciate that or not.

 

[martin-bernstein]

As long as as the snakes needs are met, I don't think they care what they are being housed in, as long as it is a good size.QUOTE]

I'd like to think it was so, but I happen to believe that all animals (including humans) thrive on outside stimuli. Most mammalian pets need to be challenged and actively stimulated in order to thrive as healthy, happy pets. Dogs that are walked thrice a day, played with and trained to work or do tricks are ultimately happier pets than dogs who sit inside all day.
I think this is the case with reptiles, fish, amphibians and all other pets. We can't train them, but we can and should provide them with "toys," hideouts, climbing vines and other "exciting" objects for them to discover. We humans, by virtue of our mammalian nature, are much more atuned to the "emotional" (trying not to anthropomorphise here) expressions of our dogs than we are to our corns, but that doesn't mean that our reptiles don't feel bored, or unhappy in a cramped sweater box.

All this to say that corns, like most other pets, will do OK once their basic needs are met. But will they thrive in a shoe box the same way they will thrive in a 30long breeder equipped with rocks, shelters and plastic jungles? Probably not...

 

[Carinata]

Nanci do you have racks for your snakes?

 

[ZoologyGirl]

All this to say that corns, like most other pets, will do OK once their basic needs are met. But will they thrive in a shoe box the same way they will thrive in a 30long breeder equipped with rocks, shelters and plastic jungles? Probably not...

but the question is...does your snake even know the difference between fancy rocks and jungles, and plastic buckets and cardboard? If I can provide the same amount of cover/climbing utilities in a tub that is provided in a fancy glass aquarium, only maybe in my tub you can't see through the tub as good, and my stuff is made from cool whip containers and egg carton, does the snake care? I don't think so.

 

[martin-bernstein]

but the question is...does your snake even know the difference between fancy rocks and jungles, and plastic buckets and cardboard? If I can provide the same amount of cover/climbing utilities in a tub that is provided in a fancy glass aquarium, only maybe in my tub you can't see through the tub as good, and my stuff is made from cool whip containers and egg carton, does the snake care? I don't think so.

Right, but then again, the question is, can you provide the same amount of cover/climbing utilities in a tub? Although corns are not arboreal they do like to climb on stuff. If you can fit a nice climbing vine or plastic plant in a tub, great, but most tubs are shorter in height than the length of a juvenile corn. In other words there's not too much space for fun stuff like climbing.

 

[wade]

I'd like to think it was so, but I happen to believe that all animals (including humans) thrive on outside stimuli. Most mammalian pets need to be challenged and actively stimulated in order to thrive as healthy, happy pets. Dogs that are walked thrice a day, played with and trained to work or do tricks are ultimately happier pets than dogs who sit inside all day.
I think this is the case with reptiles, fish, amphibians and all other pets. We can't train them, but we can and should provide them with "toys," hideouts, climbing vines and other "exciting" objects for them to discover. We humans, by virtue of our mammalian nature, are much more atuned to the "emotional" (trying not to anthropomorphise here) expressions of our dogs than we are to our corns, but that doesn't mean that our reptiles don't feel bored, or unhappy in a cramped sweater box.

All this to say that corns, like most other pets, will do OK once their basic needs are met. But will they thrive in a shoe box the same way they will thrive in a 30long breeder equipped with rocks, shelters and plastic jungles? Probably not...

It is strictly a function of intelligence. You can't compare a dog's intelligence to a snakes. A Gabboon Viper will lay in the leaf litter and not move a muscle for days on end waiting for a mouse to walk by. Boredom is not a factor. I simply waits. As long as the sun doesn't make it too hot or something threatens it, it will sit all week.

How do you define "thrive"? Snakes that live in a shoe box all their lives will live longer than wild snakes. They will reproduce and have more babies than wild snakes. Sounds to me like they are thriving. How does your 30L snake do better?

Your desire to entertain your snakes is the definition of anthropomorphism. Put them in a big cage if it makes you feel better. Give them toys if it makes you feel better. But be honest with yourself about your motives.

 

[Nanci]

Nanci do you have racks for your snakes?

Most of the adults are in racks, with 66 qt bins. This allows me to provide two or three hides plus a paper towel tube, a water bowl big enough to get into, vines on the sides and along the back, and aspen three or four inches deep for burrowing. Some snakes have reptile hammocks as well. The racks are open, so natural light comes in. The juveniles are all in heavily-vined/hided 10 gallons.

 

[Kaminoke]

I have a few aboreal tubs I've made, like my Solomon Island Tree boa... I took bird perches, drilled holes in the sides, and screwed them in there at various levels. My female BRB is in a 50 gallon aquarium with hundreds of dollars worth of waterfalls, vines, cork bark, and various other leafy/flowery cover in there. The male is in an equal sized plastic bin with Walmart plants, a cut-up wooden wine rack, and plastic bowls. His tank was waaaaay cheaper, but to the snakes I'm sure each tank would seem about the same (minus the waterfall).

Most of my snakes have the economical setups. The few that have more elaborate and spacious designs all stay in one spot anyway. From a purely observational standpoint, I don't think they care.

 

[Tula_Montage]

I believe that this question only arises when keepers feel guilty or unhappy about the way they keep their pets.

Personally, I am more than happy with keeping my snakes in tubs. Some of the species I keep are so small and fragile, that moving them out of a small and crammed environment drives them insane. They stop eating, they pace incessantly and they are noticeably more erratic when being handled. Move them back to their tiny 5ltr tubs, and they resume feeding, settle down and seem generally more content. It's about gauging your pets preferences and providing them with that. I would love to see my mini boas in a communal arboreal set up. Not going to happen, they don't settle.

I have carefully chosen 4 snakes to live in 3x2x2 vivs. These snakes are active, alert, confident, good feeders and too big for the rack tubs. They have good space to roam in, as well as the stimulation of a heated shelf, natural branches, twigs, rocks, aspen etc. I added the decor as my own preference. It's my choice to make the vivs with glass doors look appealing to me, and yes, I even matched the decor to colour coordinate with my room! Black plastic roses and all!

It's human nature to be happy with things that are aesthetically pleasing. Snakes have entirely no concept of pretty flowers and lovely branches. They use them in order to fulfil their needs ie hide, exercise and aid in shedding. I don't believe snakes are all that bothered about where they are kept, as long as their basic needs are met.

But I do believe that a snake will tell you when it is unhappy with it's environment. Snakie body language and behaviour is something that takes time to understand and learn, but it is invaluable in providing your pets with the kind of environment which is tailored to their desires and NOT yours.

 

[wstphal]

I think that if ALL the needs are met, the snake is probably pretty content. Lots of hides of different shapes at different points on the thermal gradient. Fresh water. Shrubbery to hide in or climb on even if it's cheap polyester plants + dowels. I plan on using tubs with height so I can build climbing options into them. Yeah, I won't get as many snakes in a vertical space as if I used lower tubs. Oh well.
Now, I gather that hognose snakes don't climb, they burrow, so providing more floor space, less vertical height & plenty of substrate suitable for burrowing is a more enriched environment for a hognose, IF I understand their needs correctly. DeadMouse or others can correct me if I am wrong.
I figure if there are lots of options for climbing, burrowing, slithering & hiding, and meals arrive on schedule, my snakes have a pretty good life!

 

[whippet]

Well David...it's all about the difference of living in field vs living in boxes. The snakes in fields are wild and free, but are at risk from the dangers of the world. The snakes in boxes are stuck in their own little worlds and can't see beyond the box...but they are well fed.
So basically David...what do you prefer? Boxes or Fields?

Personally...I am fine with the racks and think the snakes love the dark hidden nature of them...and I prefer the quick easy access for watering and feeding.

 

[ratsncorns]

The snakes in fields are wild and free, but are at risk from the dangers of the world.

Yeah, especially when some biologist comes around and yanks them out of their holes 20ft off the ground! LOL

 

[Tula_Montage]

David, would you rather your cheesburger was $100 and 5 miles walking distance away from you and not only that, once you reach it you must fight it to the death! Or would you prefer it was brought to you heated up on a silver plater.

Would you like your bed to be outside where it is drafty and unsafe at best... afterall anyone could take it from you. Or would you find solace in the fact it's in one place, heated and secure.

How about women?! Do you want to roam to find a gal.... it could be hundreds of miles. You may never find her and if you do she will probably reject you. Or do you want her to drop from the sky like a heavenly angel and mate until your heart is content...

Heat?!?!?!? Why wait on the sun to heat up a rock for you to lie on and get toasy when you have elecricity?

It's your choice....

 

[whippet]

Yeah, especially when some biologist comes around and yanks them out of their holes 20ft off the ground! LOL

OOOOOH hot momma!

And truthfully....most of our snakes in pretty open vivs just go the same place the snakes in the racks go...in their hides. *shrugs*

 

[wade]

How about women?! Do you want to roam to find a gal.... it could be hundreds of miles. You may never find her and if you do she will probably reject you. Or do you want her to drop from the sky like a heavenly angel and mate until your heart is content...

It's your choice....

I've decided to be a snake at Elle's house.