Sweetseraph
New member
I don't know enough to agree or disagree with you about cohabbing, but JemmaUK doesn't know what she's doing.
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High End Herps = Busted
- Thread starter Hypancistrus
- Start date
I don't know enough to agree or disagree with you about cohabbing, but JemmaUK doesn't know what she's doing.
How do you suppose one gains the experience necessary to do anything properly?
You can read only so much. You can talk to others only so much. Sooner or later, if you really want to know what you're doing, you have to put yourself out there and gain first hand knowledge. You may well make mistakes. It's the only way to really get better at anything though.
Maybe she doesn't know now. I haven't read her thread. But that does not mean she is incapable of learning.
As I said, an opinion is a fine thing. But condemning someone for not doing as you, not you in particular just the general all-encompassing you, see fit and approve of, is not cool.
You can read only so much. You can talk to others only so much. Sooner or later, if you really want to know what you're doing, you have to put yourself out there and gain first hand knowledge. You may well make mistakes. It's the only way to really get better at anything though.
Maybe she doesn't know now. I haven't read her thread. But that does not mean she is incapable of learning.
As I said, an opinion is a fine thing. But condemning someone for not doing as you, not you in particular just the general all-encompassing you, see fit and approve of, is not cool.
Sweetseraph
New member
I think one should start out doing things the established way first. She's just starting out and won't take any advice, despite asking for it. I think we need to start using reverse-psychology on her.
You should read her threads. No really, you should read them. LOL
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96889
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97254
You should read her threads. No really, you should read them. LOL
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96889
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97254
Snakewhisperer
Reptiholic
Then you better talk to the NC Zoo, who houses various rattlesnakes together, and the Nc Aquarium at Morehead City, who houses various snakes together, I can remember the corns being with the copperheads. Honestly, people who think like you do just make me mad.
airenlow
hope is not a strategy
You don't think they are just competing for that good hiding spot, and that they only tolerate each other because their lives depend on it? I don't have a horse in this race. I don't care how others keep their snakes. I'm just curious as to how the above statement proves anything...
toad772
The Grim Reaper
you are arguing(definition:to present reasons for or against, to persuade, drive, etc., by reasoning, to show; prove; imply; indicate)
cat bojangles
New member
Wilomn, I think that you are misunderstanding the use of the word "competition" in the case of snake behaviour. It does not mean anything to do with attitude or wanting to be the best or anything. What it means is that one snake habitat can only support the needs of one snake. If you introduce a second snake, they will *at best* each only get half of their needs met. Frequently, one will dominate the other in order to get more of its needs met and survive. In that case, the other may not get the access to belly heat that it needs and it may regurgitate. It may be threatened by the other snake and not go for water as often as it should, causing dehydration and the resulting health problems. In other cases, the two snakes will attempt to bully each other until one eats the other or they kill each other. In no case will both be getting what they need. It's like trying to raise two dogs by only giving them enough food for one and just letting them fight it out. You get two underfed dogs, one starved dog, or vicious dog fights. You do not get two healthy dogs.
toad772
The Grim Reaper
it is not like giving 2 dogs enough food for only one at all it is more like giving 2 dogs enough food for both. and how would you or anyone else know what a snakes think about being in a cage with another snake we can't very well ask them so you will never know what they think maybe some like being cohabbed since you are comparing dogs i might as well too some dogs get along and like other dogs and some don't so how do you know it isn't the same with snakes. (I know I was the one who said about arguing but who cares)
cat bojangles
New member
Toad, I obviously didn't communicate that in an effective manner. Sorry for the confusion but the dog thing was just an attempt at an alternate way of thinking of "needs". I wasn't trying to comment on how my snake or any snake thinks, but what they physically need in order to prevent illness and injury.
I don't think I can explain it any better than the two ways I explained it above, and I don't feel the need to argue.
I don't think I can explain it any better than the two ways I explained it above, and I don't feel the need to argue.
toad772
The Grim Reaper
i don't think food would be the best way to explain it cause both snakes would be getting the proper food
Ok, let's try this again.
In regards to snakes, do you, personally, have any experience with this? What, exactly, are you basing your assumptions on?
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
This conclusion is marred simply because in the wild, out of -choice- snakes do -not- share the same dens(excluding mating). Within a limited space, where there aren't any other options, it wouldn't surprise me that they would all seek out the "best spot".
They are solitary animals, and have been classified as much by dozens if not hundreds of scientists who over the years studied them in the wild.
I don't know if snakes care to be together or not- fact is I know they try to avoid one another in the wild, and as predators it makes allot of sense- competition over territory and resources. Snakes have no understanding that they will always be "fed"- they don't realize there's no need to hunt(they constrict F/T mice).
In the wild they are solitary, I see absolutely no reason to change that just because it's convenient or pretty.
In regards to the challenge to show this happening- I hope no one will conduct such a test- because it would basically mean dropping food and let the snakes battle it out- I promise you, the bigger snake will drive the weaker to eventual starvation- it happens in the wild all the time with animals that -are- social- be it birds, fish and so on.
You want to really test whether snakes mind being co-habbed or not out? study hundreds of cases from different breeders and see the longevity and behavior/health of animals that were housed separately and of animals that were in solitary tanks- and let statistics show the answer.
Until such time as such a study will be conducted, you simply can't conclude that snakes like co-habbing because they don't seem to mind... I am not sure what you want them to do to show they are not happy? write it on a big sign? make a glum face?
What about a dog that misses a limb? he doesn't seem to mind... does it mean he -loves- this condition?
I admit that I haven't the -slightest- idea whether snakes mind or not mind being housed together. I do however think there are major flaws in the logic of all the pro-cohabbing I saw thus far and due to the fact that these are not really "domesticated" animals, I think that conditions that are unnatural should not be needlessly forced upon them.
I keep snakes in a high regard, that based on personal experience and the fact that not all snakes are alike- there's definitely an individual personality in each, even if it's not as deep as a human's- as such, I do not accept the notion that they are feeding, pooping machines that don't care how they are housed.
Snakes have preferences- don't you have snakes that have a special spot they like to poop at? or to coil around in?
I have yet to see anyone cohabbing out of the belief that the snakes are happier that way- I -have- seen many cohab because it's cheaper... and I simply can't abide by that. We have an obligation towards these animals- if you are of the belief that it raises the snake's quality of life... I will disagree but accept what motivates you. If, like most, you co-hab because it's cheap or prettier... well, I think you need to get your priorities straight.
Jadie.Glitch
:) colubridstudios.com :)
I feel the same way. If you had two, same gendered snakes, why not co-hab them? If they were the same size so that the odds of cannibalism were greatly diminished then I see no problem.
HOWEVER, you cannot guarantee that one of the "same sized" snakes isn't going to pull a crazy and eat the other one anyway, at which point, they'd both die. The actual odds of this are pretty slim, however I've seen it happen and the pictures are NOT pretty.
Another issue is, what if one is sick? You can't tell which one because they don't say "Mommy, ow!", and then you run the risk of the healthy one catching whatever the sick one has.
Sure, co-habbing happens all the time and a lot of the time it's successful, but it's just not my style. The risks far heavily out-weight the benefits for me. Sure you can say "it only happens about 10% of the time!", but when it happens to you then it's 100% for YOU isn't it.
I think this is more of a discussion than an argument. That is what message boards are for: Discussion.
starsevol
Cohabbing is cruelty...
Zoos aren't always in it for the benefit of the animal either. Sometimes creating a pretty display that the public wants to pay to see is worth more than the animals welfare. And I really don't care if i make you mad or not. I consider forcing solitary animals to share a space to be cruel. And cruelty is something I WILL condemn.
And Wes, I will condemn whomever I choose thankyouverymuch, I don't care if YOU think it's "out of line" or what. As I just stated above, I consider it cruelty.
And Oren is right. Co habbers do it to save money, or time, or to "make a pretty display". That has absolutely nothing to do with caring properly for the animal.
Plus. this poster we are talking about, who "has an affinity for animals", won't take advice, and acts like she knows it all, has posted about 2 seperate and distinct problems so far with the co habbed snakes. Well duh, if she knew it all, there would not be any problems now, would there?
wstphal
working in the Gulag
Also, the zoos mentioned may or may not be good zoos that place animal wellbeing at the top of the list. Many aren't. And the example of the zoo that cohabbed rattlesnakes -- they are a different species, and IIRC often found together in hides in the winter in the wild, so maybe they are more tolerant of it than some species. I don't know, but I am sure there are people who do know on this board.
Anyway, the issue isn't "what do zoos do?" the issue is "what is safest? and how much safety do I NEED for MY snakes?". My personal decision was made months ago -- no cohabbing except stays together in a breeding tub, and those will be of a length guided by experienced breeders. I don't yet know if they should live together for a few days, or have conjugal visits of a few hours.
Anyway, the issue isn't "what do zoos do?" the issue is "what is safest? and how much safety do I NEED for MY snakes?". My personal decision was made months ago -- no cohabbing except stays together in a breeding tub, and those will be of a length guided by experienced breeders. I don't yet know if they should live together for a few days, or have conjugal visits of a few hours.
