FF, TF or not?

[ghosthousecorns]

In part I was being facetious because in your post I thought you were making an analogy between helping along a sickly snake and helping out a human that is born disabled and would have some difficulty surviving. I just don't feel it is a fair comparison to make. What makes us human is that we would help each other out, that we have a society, a civilization or culture that helps its own (in some cases, but man has a very ugly side also- perhaps a topic for another thread though)
Here is the comment in your original post I really disagreed most strongly with:

You would just put them down or watch them suffer?

I do everything I can to get them started, I have an extremely high success rate and have taken non feeders from others to get them started. I try a lot of things. It's just I draw the line at having to force feed or tube feed because in my experience, having bred corn snakes since 2002 every year, the ones that have to force or tube fed usually die anyway. I put them down so they won't suffer. I value their life and I don't want to see an animal existing and wasting away with a very poor quality of life. You may see it as throwing away a life, in my eyes I am sparing a living creature of having to slowly starve to death and the possibility of passing on genes that would doom other snakelings to the same fate.

 

[bitsy]

We act as rulers and take the lives of animals that could completely live a healthy life with a little boost.

That's not been my experience with hatchlings that I've force fed. They've kept the food down and digested it, but have never put on weight and died anyway. They didn't go on to live healthy lives, they just took a few months longer to die than they would have. Some are born with internal or developmental defects that mean they won't survive, regardless of how much they eat. These hatchlings are doomed from the start and there's no way of knowing what is causing a refusal to eat. It actually may be a perfectly natural situation for an animal that produces far more young than would be naturally sustainable in the wild.

Those snakes could live fine with help if needed but just don't breed them.

Unfortunately once a snake is given/sold to a new home, you can have no control over whether it's bred or not. The new owner may accept this, but a) there's no guarantee that they'll abide by such an agreement later if the snake appears otherwise healthy and b) if they have to pass it on to someone else, they then have no control over breeding. There's no way a breeder could keep all of their slow starters or assist feeders. A non-breeding clause to any rehoming contract is ultimately unenforceable with Corns.

 

[pgr8dnlvr]

In the past I have "nursed along" non feeders I have bred, in all manner of methods including tease feeding, force feeding, tube feeding, and live feeding. I have had a great deal of success with it. However I have not had a great deal of success with the recommendations that those animals don't get bred. I have had a number of people now that I hear of having babies from snakes placed with them as "recovered" non feeders.

So now, as of last season, I have decided I won't be working with the "problem" animals anymore. I guess I'm along the same lines as Tim and Ghosthouse. They were likely just not meant to be and it's better to end things quickly BEFORE they have chance of suffering. Unfortunately many people can't be trusted or they end up rehoming animals and not passing along cautionary warnings against breeding. Seems strange when you ask them to call you first before rehoming, but oh well, aren't humans grand?!

The time I would find difficult to not interfere is live and tease feeders, often times just a couple meals like that then they're usually off and running. I guess I'll still be tempted to try that in a few cases, but we shall see.

I sure wish we could find a way to spay or neuter snakes ...

Rebecca

 

[Nanci]

I have a non, never feeder that weighs 4 grams. My options are really limited, at that size. I doubt he could eat a whole live pink. I haven't tubed or FFd him yet. I think with 10 gram hatchlings like my clutch last summer, there would be a lot more options to try.

 

[Skully23]

between helping along a sickly snake and helping out a human that is born disabled and would have some difficulty surviving. I just don't feel it is a fair comparison to make. I put them down so they won't suffer. I don't want to see an animal existing and wasting away with a very poor quality of life. I am sparing a living creature of having to slowly starve

I want to compare in a certain way, a disformed sickly human to a sickly snake. As bitsy said,

These hatchlings are doomed from the start and there's no way of knowing what is causing a refusal to eat

No matter how much you care and nurse a human they will die in the next few years of their life, so why not keep your mind as pgr8dnlvr said,

They were likely just not meant to be and it's better to end things quickly BEFORE they have chance of suffering

I'm trying to express my point as that if you're willing to put a snake down to save it's life from suffer, why can't you accept the same for a human?
and
If a snake can still live healthy why put it down? because your afriad of others breeding them? It's not right...if we can let humans sit on hospital beds their whole life or feed through their stomach and pee in a bag...taking pills, breathing through thin tubes of fresh oxygen...then why won't you let a snake live if all you have to do is tube/force/tease feed it. I see it as unequal...I'm not talking about comparing an "apple" to an "orange"....(human to a snake) I'm talking about the life...not the ability of the mind, shape, or how much intelligence one has over another.

I have had a great deal of success with it. (people can't be trusted)
Rebecca

I'm glad you have had success and dislike that you quit. If I had my own place right now and money, I would try to take every non feeder and use my time to help and raise them.

 

[Jeff Linkchorst]

Tim

I try to keep it simple here. They eat or they are eaten. I don't even like to tease feed. There is nothing more frustrating then a stubborn feeder. If I have to start leaving them in their feeding container overnight to eat. They are starting down the wrong path. I will mark them as something I don't want. After a few more times of this. I start looking at the kings. If you know what I mean. Call me mean and cruel. I call it culling. :shrugs:

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I'm trying to express my point as that if you're willing to put a snake down to save it's life from suffer, why can't you accept the same for a human?

In part because a snake does not have a human consciousness, the awareness of its own existence. It is a primal being.
And it is not really me that is not willing to accept the same for a human, it is this system we live in. I certainly would prefer being euthanized to living a life of suffering if I were given a choice, but in this society there is a great deal of controversy over "pulling the plug" on someone and I think in most cases it is only acceptable if the person is "brain dead" or no longer able to be conscious. ever.
It is very kind hearted of you to want to save all the non feeders out there, and many reptile keepers start out feeling that way and rescuing everything we can. But at a certain point it is better for the future of the hobby to be careful what we breed, and as Rebecca said there are no guarantees of a "pet only" home.
This is a good discussion BTW!

 

[Skully23]

In part because a snake does not have a human consciousness, the awareness of its own existence. It is a primal being.
And it is not really me that is not willing to accept the same for a human, it is this system we live in. I certainly would prefer being euthanized to living a life of suffering if I were given a choice, but in this society there is a great deal of controversy over "pulling the plug" on someone and I think in most cases it is acceptable if the person is "brain dead" or no longer able to be conscious. ever.
It is very kind hearted of you to want to save all the non feeders out there, and many reptile keepers start out feeling that way and rescuing everything we can. But at a certain point it is better for the future of the hobby to be careful what we breed, and as Rebecca said there are no guarantees of a "pet only" home.
This is a good discussion BTW!

I'm liking this discussion aswell but maybe if you want to continue we should move it to PM?? I'm basically a "pet only" home and really have no interests as of now to breed.

"In part because a snake does not have a human consciousness, the awareness of its own existence. It is a primal being."I still don't get how "we" get this. I think animals know more about the world than we do. They walk, breath, and live as we do. We might have more of a mannered mind but I don't see how we can predict the mind of a non speaking animal.. It comes down to a choice which should be optional...which animals don't have because of "our" ability not to understand them by words.

 

[Jeff Linkchorst]

I have a non, never feeder that weighs 4 grams. My options are really limited, at that size. I doubt he could eat a whole live pink. I haven't tubed or FFd him yet. I think with 10 gram hatchlings like my clutch last summer, there would be a lot more options to try.

Nanci
I had some good luck with runts. I would cut the pinky's head off. Feed the body section to a known eater. Offer the head to the little guy/girl. I have good luck getting runts to eat that way. It does take a bit of time to get them to whole bodies this way though. I don't offer live though just frozen.

 

[Nanci]

Thanks Jeff. He has so far refused pink heads, washed, lizard-scented, brained, and live wriggling baby anole tail. I guess I still can try all the chicken and fish scents. I'm just worn down by him. He has not lost one gram, in three months. I'm a little tempted to let him go out in my turtle pen in the spring, if he's still alive. Let him go find what he wants, or become part of the food chain.

 

[Jeff Linkchorst]

Darn Nanci. Sorry about it. I thought I had a good one for ya. Sorry and Good Luck with the lil one.


P.S. Did you try using chicken broth? To add a new scent.

 

[Lennycorn]

I'm liking this discussion aswell but maybe if you want to continue we should move it to PM?? I'm basically a "pet only" home and really have no interests as of now to breed.

I'm liking this discussion too and I’m a pet owner of sorts but don't take it to PMs where we can’t view the thoughts on the subject and come to our own conclusions.

 

[Skully23]

I'm liking this discussion too and I’m a pet owner of sorts but don't take it to PMs where we can’t view the thoughts on the subject and come to our own conclusions.

Don't worry, we haven't taken it to PM.

 

[Jessicat]

I put them down so they won't suffer. I value their life and I don't want to see an animal existing and wasting away with a very poor quality of life. You may see it as throwing away a life, in my eyes I am sparing a living creature of having to slowly starve to death and the possibility of passing on genes that would doom other snakelings to the same fate.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. As I stated previously, when it comes to tube and force feeding, the benefit is for the human, not the snake. Weather it's perpetuating the snake's life because it's a hot new morph, or because we feel bad (this is sill a self serving purpose), it is for our benefit rather than the snake's.

Also, as Jenn stated, it seems like I read about snakes who end up dying anyway after a stressful force or tube feeding debacle.

I think one of the problems here is people project human feelings and moral codes onto the animals involved.

If a snake can still live healthy why put it down? because your afriad of others breeding them?

It doesn't seem as though you've been actually reading people's posts..
It's been said a few times by people with experience that snakes that need to be assist fed by force or tube generally end up dying anyway. They don't have normal healthy lives.
As someone who doesn't have any real life experience with this subject matter, perhaps you should just listen to the experts?

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Well I also don't see the need to go to PM's as long as the discussion is still relevant to the topic, unless Timmah kicks us out of his thread... If anything maybe start a new thread?
Anyway, I did want to address the comparison between snakes and humans a little more - as far as awareness/ consciousness goes. A snake's brain is a really small pea sized organ, while our human brains are complex and contain areas where consciousness, memory, awareness, language, the sense of "I" are able to develop. But a snake can only know things that it is immediately experiencing - hunger pangs, pain, cold, urge to mate, things like that. It doesn't know "I am a snake" the way you and I know "I am a person" and it can be easy to forget that, they have even coined a word for it when you assign human feelings to animals it's called anthropomorphizing ...

 

[Nanci]

You know what I always wonder about. What is a snake thinking when it hovers in the front of its viv, and you slide out the bin, and offer your hand, and the snake climbs out, and you carry it around, and it isn't getting fed, or trying to escape, or trying to hide- I wonder what the snake is experiencing. When I take a snake out and sit, watching TV, giving it a little snakey back massage, and the snake lies perfectly still- is it experiencing pleasure? I just wonder what they think, when they are appearing to enjoy, or at least not run away from, our attentions.

 

[Skully23]

It doesn't seem as though you've been actually reading people's posts..
As someone who doesn't have any real life experience with this subject matter, perhaps you should just listen to the experts?

I have been reading the posts and I listen to experts a lot but it doesn't make them right.

But a snake can only know things that it is immediately experiencing - hunger pangs, pain, cold, urge to mate, things like that. It doesn't know "I am a snake" the way you and I know "I am a person" and it can be easy to forget that, they have even coined a word for it when you assign human feelings to animals it's called anthropomorphizing ...

I'm not assigning human "feelings" to an animal. I am saying they have a life which we easily take away because of our own judgement. I really don't know how any tests or studies can assume that a snake doesn't think it's a snake or what immediate experiences it has...You would probably have to be the snake's brain yourself to understand it.

You know what I always wonder about. What is a snake thinking when it hovers in the front of its viv, and you slide out the bin, and offer your hand, and the snake climbs out, and you carry it around, and it isn't getting fed, or trying to escape, or trying to hide- I wonder what the snake is experiencing. When I take a snake out and sit, watching TV, giving it a little snakey back massage, and the snake lies perfectly still- is it experiencing pleasure? I just wonder what they think, when they are appearing to enjoy, or at least not run away from, our attentions.

I wonder this also. Animals "apparently" don't have the ability to feel pleasure in ways we think is not normal for an animal. You ever wonder why a cat will come purr and rub on you? Or why a dog gets really excited when you come home? There is something deeper....but I watched a movie about dolphines once and they have made studies that dolphines have s** for pleasure and react to their own reflection in a mirror. I work with an animal sanctuary and the chimp there has done many things...intelligent things. Such as, screw driver it grabbed ahold of from someone and started unscrewing screws. It even got hold of a saw and began sawing the wood.(construction was being done on his home during the time)
You can't possibly explain how he did that because that isn't "animal behavior".

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I absolutely agree that a chimp or dolphin can be intelligent,a dog or cat can experience something that is like love or affection in human terms, etc, But all of those examples are mammals. Their brains are bigger and more highly evolved than the brain of a reptile. It's been a while since I took Biology but I do recall that the human brain has a base fundamental part that is referred to sometimes as the "reptile" part of the brain? But then we and other mammals also have developed other more evolved parts to our brain that animals like reptiles and birds don't have (hence the term like "bird brain")
But kind of back on topic, I do want to say again is that I don't euthanize any snake if I do think it has a chance to live a healthy life, I think it is perfectly OK to start a snake by tease feeding, live, scenting with assorted things. I don't condemn other breeders who choose to tube feed since I know others have had success with it, including Kathy Love. But I am always able to get almost all of my hatchlings to eat voluntarily by trying many different things and I give them tons of chances to eat, I only put them down if they start to look frail. Many snakes hatch out with enough reserves to last for months without having to eat and I take that into account. My opinion is that the ones I have put down (and it has not been that many) wouldn't have made good pets and I brought them into this world so that does give me the responsibility to make that decision, as every breeder has to do for themselves.

 

[Skully23]

I absolutely agree that a chimp or dolphin can be intelligent,a dog or cat can experience something that is like love or affection in human terms, etc, But all of those examples are mammals. Their brains are bigger and more highly evolved than the brain of a reptile. It's been a while since I took Biology but I do recall that the human brain has a base fundamental part that is referred to sometimes as the "reptile" part of the brain? But then we and other mammals also have developed other more evolved parts to our brain that animals like reptiles and birds don't have (hence the term like "bird brain")
But kind of back on topic, I do want to say again is that I don't euthanize any snake if I do think it has a chance to live a healthy life, I think it is perfectly OK to start a snake by tease feeding, live, scenting with assorted things. I don't condemn other breeders who choose to tube feed since I know others have had success with it, including Kathy Love. But I am always able to get almost all of my hatchlings to eat voluntarily by trying many different things and I give them tons of chances to eat, I only put them down if they start to look frail. Many snakes hatch out with enough reserves to last for months without having to eat and I take that into account. My opinion is that the ones I have put down (and it has not been that many) wouldn't have made good pets and I brought them into this world so that does give me the responsibility to make that decision, as every breeder has to do for themselves.

I like that you give it a chance with feedings.

If only parents said that lol (because they brought us here) "I brought them into this world..." I'm not going to bring something into this world to put down and I'm not going to have that kinda of attitude because of my "higher" brain. I would give it time and try every possible feeding..if it died on me then I know it wasn't meant or if it had serious problems..I would put it down.

Mammals or not...at work there are three iguanas. When I touch them to pet them they raise and close their eyes. They love being sprayed too. I think anything has some sort of feeling but not exactly "human" like. Reptiles do seem to have less intelligence as you mention but they still have something.

 

[bitsy]

I would give it time and try every possible feeding..if it died on me then I know it wasn't meant or if it had serious problems..I would put it down.

So the real discussion is over where the line ought to be drawn and what constitutes "enough suffering"?

In the scenarios I've faced, what would you have done? Hatchlings that won't eat of their own accord, despite trying all the tricks (including offering live pinkies). You're force-feeding them apparently successfully, but after three months of this they still aren't putting on weight or growing.

When do you decide to euthanase? Or do you just continue the force-feeding and let nature take its course? I'm just asking because I've never euthanased anything apart from one badly kinked hatchling that could physically never have swallowed food. I sometimes wish I'd had more courage than to watch non-feeders fade in front of me over weeks or months.