Testing for Stargazing

[Rich Z]

The breeding process on a female is very very stressful.

Absolutely!

Just as in human beings, every birth (or egg-laying) is a very serious situation that puts the female at great risk of not living through the process. To breed them for absolutely no other reason than to try to prove whether or not she may be carrying a deleterious gene, and have to kill all of the offspring afterwards regardless of the results, well, perhaps some of you can do that, but I know I never have, and never could.

 

[Reptileman81]

I think only a well know very popular breeder who's animals are really saught will be able to get a premium for there tested stock. The novice/hobbiest/not well known breed already has a harder time selling the same snakes at a discount.

 

[Reptileman81]

Absolutely!

Just as in human beings, every birth (or egg-laying) is a very serious situation that puts the female at great risk of not living through the process. To breed them for absolutely no other reason than to try to prove whether or not she may be carrying a deleterious gene, and have to kill all of the offspring afterwards regardless of the results, well, perhaps some of you can do that, but I know I never have, and never could.

Here Here!!!

 

[iculatr]

I think only a well know very popular breeder who's animals are really saught will be able to get a premium for there tested stock. The novice/hobbiest/not well known breed already has a harder time selling the same snakes at a discount.

Not to mention that the average buyer (just looking for a cool pet snake and not intending to breed it) wouldn't even care if it was possibly carrying stargazer.

 

[Rich Z]

Thanks rich I had an old snow do it last year. She has not been right. It looked as if the eggs were inside a sack . I made a small incision on sack to remove the eggs . All eggs went bad. The snow female was left with three inches of the sack hanging from the cloacha . No vets near by would fool with the snake . Is this what you refer to as prolapsing? She eats sparaticley and weight fluctuates . She didn't ovulate this year . What do you think the best options are for this situation ? Also why do you think the eggs went bad? When first layed they appeared pearly white , then quickly went bad? There was also a bloodish film on eggs. Have you ever experienced this type of thing.

That "sack" was one of the oviducts, I believe, based on your description. And I'm not surprised all the eggs went bad. Seriously, witnessing a prolapsed female is about one of the most heartbreaking things you will see doing this breeding stuff. I'm not sure why some will, and others won't, but you will find yourself beating yourself up wondering if YOU did something wrong to cause it.

But in any event, whatever happened to that section of oviduct prolapsed out of her cloaca? I'm surprised she didn't get a severe internal infection, not only from the incision, but also from the exposed internal tissues in a non-sterile environment. But snakes can be pretty tough and recover from things that would surprise us. In other instances, however, they can already be effectively dead, but it takes a long time before they actually go belly up to prove it.

As for what to do with her, well, honestly, if it were me in your shoes, I would never breed her again. She could MAYBE still produce viable eggs with the one viable oviduct (they have two), but she already now has a history of a severe problem and there is always the possibility that the damage was such that she is now completely sterile with both oviducts ruined. Even if she does happen to live through it, and CAN breed again, why chance it again?

 

[Nanci]

Thanks rich I had an old snow do it last year. She has not been right. It looked as if the eggs were inside a sack . I made a small incision on sack to remove the eggs . All eggs went bad. The snow female was left with three inches of the sack hanging from the cloacha . No vets near by would fool with the snake . Is this what you refer to as prolapsing? She eats sparaticley and weight fluctuates . She didn't ovulate this year . What do you think the best options are for this situation ?

Okay- with a collection the size of yours, with animals as valuable as you have, you need to find a herp vet YESTERDAY.

What to do with your old snow female? How about let her retire in peace, since she has miraculously lived through amateur surgery????? Jesus.

 

[beautifullywild77]

NMoore, you can donate her to your kids project of giving snakes to the less fortunate!

 

[starsevol]

Thanks rich I had an old snow do it last year. She has not been right. It looked as if the eggs were inside a sack . I made a small incision on sack to remove the eggs . All eggs went bad. The snow female was left with three inches of the sack hanging from the cloacha . No vets near by would fool with the snake . Is this what you refer to as prolapsing? She eats sparaticley and weight fluctuates . She didn't ovulate this year . What do you think the best options are for this situation ? Also why do you think the eggs went bad? When first layed they appeared pearly white , then quickly went bad? There was also a bloodish film on eggs. Have you ever experienced this type of thing.

SERIOUSLY??????????????
You did SURGERY on your snake??? And now you don't know what to do with her? It is a miracle she is still alive, poor thing.
In that other thread, I admit, I was beginning to get the feeling that my initial feelings about you might have been mistaken. Thank you very much for solidifying every negative vibe I get from you. UGH.

 

[Rich Z]

People, please.... Quite frankly I see a lot of initiative from someone willing to try to save what they can from a very bad situation. Even if it does require minor surgery. He tried to save the eggs in the ONLY way that he could have, under the circumstances. Hopefully none of you will find yourself in that same unfortunate circumstance, but if you do, I think you will be thinking along the same lines of how to try to save those eggs by anyway possible. There will be times that even if you do know a vet willing to work on your snakes, time will be of the ESSENCE to try to save something from a disaster.

 

[Reptileman81]

People, please.... Quite frankly I see a lot of initiative from someone willing to try to save what they can from a very bad situation. Even if it does require minor surgery. He tried to save the eggs in the ONLY way that he could have, under the circumstances. Hopefully none of you will find yourself in that same unfortunate circumstance, but if you do, I think you will be thinking along the same lines of how to try to save those eggs by anyway possible. There will be times that even if you do know a vet willing to work on your snakes, time will be of the ESSENCE to try to save something from a disaster.

Agreed!!! As if I have not had enough bad rep in the past for misunderstandings I may regret saying this, but I as well have preformed minor surgery on a snake years ago when I was about 18ish that was egg bound. She had never bred and really was not even old enough or big enough to breed. I noticed one day that she had a hard lump in her. I knew exactly what it was. I tried the slowly moving it down method, but no luck. Once it is a sold mass like that it will not move. So I read up on some surgery practices and cut her open and cut open the oviduct to remove one solid hard egg. I stitched her up and clean the wound everyday. After about 2 weeks I removed the stitches and after 3-4 weeks she was all over her cage looking for food. I fed her and a few days later she had a good stool. She had a full recovery and stayed in my collection for a few more years and I never breed her nor would I ever. I then gave her to a good friend of mine at the time.

Sometimes doing something is better then nothing and I do not blame Nick for that. I just hope you atleast read up on the operation before you did it in the dark.

 

[Shiari]

The mere thought that a seller would be "preferred" because they test their lines is ridiculous.

As Terri stated from experience, the average buyer will not pay more for your "tested" line when they can get the same sunkissed from someone else at a lower price.

I would prefer a seller who did proper husbandry/veterinary care AND tested. And the more fool they who would buy a snake because it was cheaper, than from "reduced likelihood" lines if they want to breed.

Just as all my previous mentions of various hereditary diseases in dogs that responsible breeders are trying to eliminate, burying stargazing in the backyard is going to come back to haunt us. It used to be that some of these conditions were simply not talked about. But the information is out there and people will find out, and it reflects badly on us as a whole. If you see someone urinating into a large pond, are you still going to want to drink that water?

I am going to be testing my het sunkissed animals. Any het/ph animals will be humanely euthanised. Any homozygous gazers will be given freely away to anyone else who wants to test their stock. And I would not alter the price I would charge if they come up as unlikely to be carriers. I consider it my duty to not encourage the proliferation of a genetic neurologic condition.

I don't want to be like the lady who came in the other day with her 8 cute golden retriever puppies.... the mother of whom has epilepsy. This woman did not feel it was wrong to breed an epileptic dog because the seizures don't happen often, and it otherwise doesn't really affect the momma dog.

 

[stephen]

Hmmm

I guess some cant read or understand no matter how many times it been said, there is no test,not one that will give any reliable results...oke:

 

[Nanci]

Sorry- if a snake of mine has a medical emergency, it is getting health care from a professional. I have my vet's home phone number and am welcome to call at any time.

Did you unlicensed surgeons provide anesthesia for your snakes? Didn't think so...

 

[iculatr]

I would prefer a seller who did proper husbandry/veterinary care AND tested. And the more fool they who would buy a snake because it was cheaper, than from "reduced likelihood" lines if they want to breed.

Just as all my previous mentions of various hereditary diseases in dogs that responsible breeders are trying to eliminate, burying stargazing in the backyard is going to come back to haunt us. It used to be that some of these conditions were simply not talked about. But the information is out there and people will find out, and it reflects badly on us as a whole. If you see someone urinating into a large pond, are you still going to want to drink that water?

I am going to be testing my het sunkissed animals. Any het/ph animals will be humanely euthanised. Any homozygous gazers will be given freely away to anyone else who wants to test their stock. And I would not alter the price I would charge if they come up as unlikely to be carriers. I consider it my duty to not encourage the proliferation of a genetic neurologic condition.

I don't want to be like the lady who came in the other day with her 8 cute golden retriever puppies.... the mother of whom has epilepsy. This woman did not feel it was wrong to breed an epileptic dog because the seizures don't happen often, and it otherwise doesn't really affect the momma dog.

Megan, I understand where you are coming from and respect how it was presented. My issue was mainly with the way it was first stated in the quote I provided in my post.

 

[nmoore601]

She has not been breed since. She's on and off with feeding. I had to take drastic measures. As far as donating her we will see. A vet is far and few between nanci. I was simply asking rich for his opinion. I really didn't need to be told by all what to with my collecTion in a serious situation. At least I saved my old snow. I appreciate the support rich. Many thanks.

 

[nmoore601]

Litocane was used prior to the insesion. Due to owning horses there is slot a person can do for an animal. At least you learn how to save an animals life in an emergency.

 

[nmoore601]

Reptileman I did research and read as often as I could and I read about this prior to it happening. I appreciate an honest man. I know I'm honest cause I sleep good at night.

 

[MysticExotics]

There have been some very good points brought up that have me rethink this topic, that & a conversation I had with a friend today, on this topic.

One would have to test each animal for a few consecutive years, without any SG results to really be considered SG free. This includes all het & possible het animals.
SG is not as big of a deal as it's being portrayed. Sure, it sucks, but seriously, how prevelant is it? It's not.

It's not even as common as the wobble you see in Carpet Jags & Spider Balls. In those, the wobble is present in *every* animal, but it doesn't always visially present itself, & when it does, can be at different levels. These animals live, eat, defecate, breed just fine. I know, because I have two Jags. One has a more visual wobble, the other doesn't show visual signs. Both function just fine.
From what I am told, Most SG's function just fine as well, just have the wobble.

I had no problem buying untested SK babies from Walter. I liked the animals, so I bought them, & yes I intend on breeding them. Initially, I planned on aquiring a pair of Gazers to test those two, but then I got to thinking. How effective is it really to only test one year of breeding? I have no plans to test for a few years consecutively just to test for a gene that isn't as big of a problem as its being portrayed.

I still have some time before I need to worry about breeding my SK babies from Walter, so I'm not going to dwell on it.

 

[susang]

She has not been breed since. She's on and off with feeding. I had to take drastic measures. As far as donating her we will see. A vet is far and few between nanci. I was simply asking rich for his opinion. I really didn't need to be told by all what to with my collecTion in a serious situation. At least I saved my old snow. I appreciate the support rich. Many thanks.

Litocane was used prior to the insesion. Due to owning horses there is slot a person can do for an animal. At least you learn how to save an animals life in an emergency.

Reptileman I did research and read as often as I could and I read about this prior to it happening. I appreciate an honest man. I know I'm honest cause I sleep good at night.

Seriously you operated on a snake, you are an engineer and you can't spell. What does owning horses have to do with doing surgery on a snake? What is a slot person?

 

[Reptileman81]

Sorry- if a snake of mine has a medical emergency, it is getting health care from a professional. I have my vet's home phone number and am welcome to call at any time.

Did you unlicensed surgeons provide anesthesia for your snakes? Didn't think so...

Am I saying what I did was right NO WAY!!! Will I do it again NEVER!!! But at the time and age of 18ish (some 13 years ago) I did what I had to do to try to save my snake. I do not regret it and if I had to do it all over again I still would of made the choice that I did. Did my snake survive and thrive yes, but I am sure that I was just luck that it did.

Just part of a lesson learned. Everyone's made mistakes in there past and all we can do to grow is learn from them. You can bet that in the future my snake would see a vet in a heart beat.