good find or no?

[tyflier]

Okay hold a moment. Top breeders do not do that. Backyard and unethical breeders do.
Yes some dogs have huge linebred problems. German Sheps for example have been bred in america to the point of near helplessness. HOWEVER Good, true breeders who breed for the love of the dog and not hte money do NOT breed animals who are less than worthy. DO NOT breed diseases into the line and do NOT inbreed. German Sheps for example are going back to actual german dogs...

I disagree with you. The AKC "standards" for MANY of the top breeds require negative traits.

German Shephards are a perfect example. The breed standards require the sloped back and low slung hip movement of their gait. This is a debilitating defect purposefully bred into the line in order to meet standards.

Labradors have been line bred to the point that hip displacia has shortened the life expectancy of the entire breed due to late life inactivity.

Dobermans have been linebred for long enough that neurological disorders are accepted as unavoidable in the breed.

Now...don't get me wrong...I agree that we, as breeders, should do our absolute best to avoid purposefully breeding disorders such as kinks, short-tail, and stargazing. I agree with the intentions behind your statement and your sentiment. I just don't agree with your example...

 

[wakeboarder]

just to let everyone know, the guy that told me that said that it was his personal pet and he was the one that smashed it in the lid . That may or may not make a difference to some of you.

I really enjoyed reading all this though

 

[Hypancistrus]

just to let everyone know, the guy that told me that said that it was his personal pet and he was the one that smashed it in the lid . That may or may not make a difference to some of you.

I really enjoyed reading all this though

And this is just what I meant. If it's a person you trust (I, for instance, would totally trust my local herp store owner) then great! Buy it and breed it and enjoy the resulting pippies! But in the event of the unknown... playing the IF game... I am not down with that.

In any event it sounds like a lovely snake and regardless, I am all about buying lovely snakes. :dancer:

 

[Iguanagirl8662]

just to let everyone know, the guy that told me that said that it was his personal pet and he was the one that smashed it in the lid . That may or may not make a difference to some of you.

I really enjoyed reading all this though

Well that stinks you can't get it, o well time to find another one lol.

 

[whippet]

OK, different subject now and BTW, sorry to the OP for hijacking this thread. I agree completely with your statements BUT, most people do not want to pay what morphs are truly worth. So this year I sold to a wholesaler or put them in the freezer. I will not let people take advantage of this terrible market and buy a $300 or more snake for $35.00 just to make a sale. I am not soley dependant on my animals sales. Next year I will not breed very many animals, only the projects I am working on, not other stuff that would be middle of the road or lower.

dc

Wait...back up. I swear I missed this. AND even then I had to read this 3 times. Are you actually saying YOU FROZE healthy baby snakes because no one wanted to pay your prices for them??? You are kidding right? Talk about bad breeder ethics....That is horrible. I don't care how much money you would loose, that is just plain abuse.

 

[Camby]

yes I have in the past and recently frozen babies for several manner of reasons including genetic defaults, determination of hybridization with other species and more recently that people wanted to take advantage of the terrible market we are in. Like or not, judge me how you will I am not going to put years of hard work into producing something and because of the economic down turn sell them for what normals should go for. It just isn't going to happen. I won't name names but allow me to let you in on a little secret, many of the top breeders do the same thing believe me or not I don't really care but it is the truth like it or not.

That said, you stated I showed bad breeder ethics by placing some snakes into the freezer rather than selling them dirt cheap. I would argue I have helped the species and the markets since I haven't dumped over 100 high dollar morphs on the market at a greatly reduced rate just to satisfy other people who want to take advantage of the current market. Because of this, I will not breed many animals this coming season except the projects I want to work on for my pure pleasure like the pied sided blood reds and my emoryi projects.

I truly understand that you and maybe many others on the forums will likely disagree with my views on euthinazing these and past animals. I also think you are entitled to that opinion and can see your reasons why you feel the way you do concerning this subject and that is ok. However, I will not debate this issue with you or others even if provoked to do so. No manner of argument you present will change my view, it is just how I am regrading this so I hope we agree to disagree, but if not, then so beit.

dc

 

[Camby]

Talk about bad breeder ethics....That is horrible. I don't care how much money you would loose, that is just plain abuse.

I forgot to mention something. You obviously keep snakes and unless you have developed a vegitarian snake, then you have to feed either live or frozen thawed rodents. So if it is bad to freeze the snakes for my reasons but it is ok to freeze the rodents because they are a food source. I have always wondered why people take the stance that snakes shouldn't be put down or better yet, I love the people who say hunting is terrible because of the poor little bambie, but they have no issue eating chicken or hamburgers or steak, lol. I guess the deer are innocent but the cattle and chicken have it coming huh, they brought it on themselves right?

Just an observation

dc

 

[tyflier]

Wait...back up. I swear I missed this. AND even then I had to read this 3 times. Are you actually saying YOU FROZE healthy baby snakes because no one wanted to pay your prices for them??? You are kidding right? Talk about bad breeder ethics....That is horrible. I don't care how much money you would loose, that is just plain abuse.

I'll go one further...what difference does it make to you what he has done with his own animals. If euthanasia for any reason is OK, nobody should have to justify themselves to satisfy your biased opinion of right and wrong. Some people will agree with your reasons for euthansia, some will not. Some will agree with mine, some will not. Some will agree with camby's and some will not. So be it. It doesn't make any one of us better or worse, more or less ethical, than any of the others.

We are all perfectly within our rights to make those decisions for ourselves, and not be villified for making the same decisions for different reasons. As long as the snakes do not suffer in any way, the action of euthanasia just because is the same as the act of euthanasia due to defects...which is the same as euthanasia for food, BTW...All are ethically equal, and personal decisions to make.

Bear in mind that ethics are not merely opinions, but often legal issues. Morals are purely a matter of opinion. This is a moral dilemma, not an ethical one.

 

[ForkedTung]

yes I have in the past and recently frozen babies for several manner of reasons...and more recently that people wanted to take advantage of the terrible market we are in.

That said, you stated I showed bad breeder ethics by placing some snakes into the freezer rather than selling them dirt cheap. I would argue I have helped the species and the markets since I haven't dumped over 100 high dollar morphs on the market at a greatly reduced rate just to satisfy other people who want to take advantage of the current market.

How about poor moral ethics?
These are actually sentient life forms your freezing because they just won't make you enough money?
I don't doubt others do the same, but " two wrongs..."
I breed to make a little money too, but I would rather see the market flooded with high end morphs than know people are sticking them in the freezer because the market is slow. There has to be another option.

As for the frozen rodent argument, it just doesn't wash. The purpose is to keep the snakes alive. Your killing them because their not convenient to your idea of what you believe they should cost. If the market can't support what you think they should cost then tough! that's what the market is. Supply and demand! There isn't a demand right now so you " throw the baby out with the bathwater"?

 

[ForkedTung]

NOTE****All blue is mine

I'll go one further...what difference does it make to you what he has done with his own animals. If euthanasia for any reason is OK,Who said it was OK for any reason? nobody should have to justify themselves to satisfy your biased opinion of right and wrong. This is true, but it was posted on a public forum...and well that pretty much makes it a topic for discussion Some people will agree with your reasons for euthansia, some will not. Some will agree with mine, some will not. Some will agree with camby's and some will not. True True, We can agree to disagree, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss this So be it. It doesn't make any one of us better or worse, more or less ethical, than any of the others.

We are all perfectly within our rights to make those decisions for ourselves, Try posting about how you do this with some cute puppies and see what the response is?and not be villified for making the same decisions for different reasons. As long as the snakes do not suffer in any way,This is something none of us will ever TRULY know the action of euthanasia just because is the same as the act of euthanasia due to defects...which is the same as euthanasia for food,I completely disagree, "just because" is not a reason, he is doing it SOLEY for monetary reasons BTW...All are ethically equal, and personal decisions to make.

Bear in mind that ethics are not merely opinions, but often legal issues. Morals are purely a matter of opinion. This is a moral dilemma, not an ethical one.

I think is is more of a matter of moral ethics. Finally tyflier one question out of curiosity ( this, nor your answer is not meant to villify you) and your defense of this practice: Do you euthanize snakes that you can't sell because you don't feel you'll get enough money for them?

 

[Tula_Montage]

Why do people ALWAYS compare snakes to pedigree dogs. It's simply not in the same league! No questions about it, there is NO official standard for any species of snake, any morph or any variant.

Yes you should try to breed the best examples of the species or morph you are working with to create the ideal specimen but everyone has different ideals and preferences. For example I like jet black aneries with no yellow, but a friend of mine likes light brown aneries with LOTS of yellow. Which is right? Which is wrong? Which example makes it any less of an anery?

As for the issue about euthanasia, I agree with the OP. Why screw up the market (that is already screwed) by selling babies for less than you think they are worth. I don't think personally I would euthanize them, HOWEVER I wouldn't breed in such large numbers of breed particularly high end snakes if I couldn't sell them. I would never euthanize a perfectly healthy animal unnecessarily, I would keep the babies I was unable to sell for what I wanted and accept the responsibility for the animals I produced. I WOULD NOT lower the price of the animal just to shift it along after all the time and effort put into producing it.

 

[Weebonilass]

How about poor moral ethics?
These are actually sentient life forms your freezing because they just won't make you enough money?
I don't doubt others do the same, but " two wrongs..."
I breed to make a little money too, but I would rather see the market flooded with high end morphs than know people are sticking them in the freezer because the market is slow. There has to be another option.

As for the frozen rodent argument, it just doesn't wash. The purpose is to keep the snakes alive. Your killing them because their not convenient to your idea of what you believe they should cost. If the market can't support what you think they should cost then tough! that's what the market is. Supply and demand! There isn't a demand right now so you " throw the baby out with the bathwater"?

Thank you! You made the points in both of your posts that I would have made.

 

[Camby]

How about poor moral ethics?
These are actually sentient life forms your freezing because they just won't make you enough money?
I don't doubt others do the same, but " two wrongs..."
I breed to make a little money too, but I would rather see the market flooded with high end morphs than know people are sticking them in the freezer because the market is slow. There has to be another option.

As for the frozen rodent argument, it just doesn't wash. The purpose is to keep the snakes alive. Your killing them because their not convenient to your idea of what you believe they should cost. If the market can't support what you think they should cost then tough! that's what the market is. Supply and demand! There isn't a demand right now so you " throw the baby out with the bathwater"?

Again, I am not going to argue ethics or morals here. What I do or don't do with a few snakes is not enough to constitute my moral standing. You said the snakes are sentient life forms, well, guess what, cows and chickens are also but I am sure when most people stop at the Burger King for a sandwich they don't debate wether or not to purchase and consume it because a poor cow died. Plus, what happens to those Burgers and other foods cooked each day that didn't get sold? Many times they are tossed in the dumpster. Does that make those persons imorla or unethical? Sure they are doing it for a different reason but like you said, "two wrongs...."

I have already stated in an earlier post that I plan to cut back on breedings next year because of this current issue, does that make me now a more moral person?

I am done with this argument, I have my reasons and if people don't agree then that is ok but I know some here have the same thoughts.

dc

 

[Hypancistrus]

I would never euthanize a perfectly healthy animal unnecessarily, I would keep the babies I was unable to sell for what I wanted and accept the responsibility for the animals I produced. I WOULD NOT lower the price of the animal just to shift it along after all the time and effort put into producing it.

I agree with this. In my opinion if you bring animals into the world, you are responsible for them. When I start breeding I will not bring so many into the world that I cannot afford to feed or house them if they do not sell. I will make sure that I can adequately house what I produce, or that there is a market for the babies prior to their birth. To me that is where the ethics of breeding comes into play-- in being entirely responsible for the lives of the animals in your care, that you have produced. I do not personally think it is right or okay to euthanize healthy animals because you have too many.

As for the dog comparison-- no one was saying that there should be a standard for "looks." People were talking specifically about KINKS. To me, saying you won't breed genetically kinked snakes has nothing to do with looks and everything to do with health. It's like choosing not to breed a Scottish Terrier carrying the gene for Von Willebrand's disease, or a large dog with evidence of poor hip joints and possibly dysplasia. Therein was the comparison, I think.

Do you guys remember that thread someone posted a few weeks ago where they had x-rays done of their deceased kinked baby snake, and the x-rays showed mash? Why take the risk of producing an unhealthy animal by breeding a kinked snake of (at the time) unknown origin to possibly produce kinked offspring? That was my original point, at least. I never said anything about color patterns. That was brought in later.

 

[v_various]

yes I have in the past and recently frozen babies for several manner of reasons including genetic defaults, determination of hybridization with other species and more recently that people wanted to take advantage of the terrible market we are in. Like or not, judge me how you will I am not going to put years of hard work into producing something and because of the economic down turn sell them for what normals should go for. It just isn't going to happen. I won't name names but allow me to let you in on a little secret, many of the top breeders do the same thing believe me or not I don't really care but it is the truth like it or not.

That said, you stated I showed bad breeder ethics by placing some snakes into the freezer rather than selling them dirt cheap. I would argue I have helped the species and the markets since I haven't dumped over 100 high dollar morphs on the market at a greatly reduced rate just to satisfy other people who want to take advantage of the current market. Because of this, I will not breed many animals this coming season except the projects I want to work on for my pure pleasure like the pied sided blood reds and my emoryi projects.

I truly understand that you and maybe many others on the forums will likely disagree with my views on euthinazing these and past animals. I also think you are entitled to that opinion and can see your reasons why you feel the way you do concerning this subject and that is ok. However, I will not debate this issue with you or others even if provoked to do so. No manner of argument you present will change my view, it is just how I am regrading this so I hope we agree to disagree, but if not, then so beit.

dc

You....you kill babies because you don't want to sell them for cheap? My god, that's freaking horrifying.

My normal, FinFang, was free (with a request that I donate to reptile rescue, which I did). He is awesome and charming, the thought of him dying instead of finding his way into my home just because of his monetary worth is sickening. Life is not casual, if you decided to bring snakes into the world you have to accept some level of responsibility for those lives. They are worth more than just money.

I have always wondered why people take the stance that snakes shouldn't be put down

There are reasons to put down animals, like for food or if they're too sick to have any quality of life. Money is not one of those reasons.

I agree with this. In my opinion if you bring animals into the world, you are responsible for them. When I start breeding I will not bring so many into the world that I cannot afford to feed or house them if they do not sell.

I'll rep that, I wish every breeder was as responsible and caring. Personally, I would never breed anyway. I'll leave that to people ambitious enough to want to breed the best animals out there, I just want pets : /

 

[ghosthousecorns]

In defense of the poor market thing, many people did not/ could not anticipate that the economy would get so bad, that it would be so hard to move animals this year. I had quite a few snakes I wholesaled, and in a way it may have? been kinder to euthanize them, because who knows if they will end up at some mite infested pet store. But I couldn't bring myself to just freeze them and I also could not bring myself to sell them off for 20 bucks as I saw many do this year, why because I didn't want to hurt the market or undercut other breeders. So lesson learned and I am cutting back / changing breeding plans accordingly. Also the animals I wholesaled did not get sold with hets listed and I let some pretty nice genetically snakes go and somebody out there is going to get lucky if they buy them.
I can understand why someone would rather cull these snakes than hurt the market by selling them off cheap even if I personally could not do so. But I do have to say the thought of getting myself a nice big hungry king snake has definitely crossed my mind...

 

[tom e]

I had quite a few snakes I wholesaled, and in a way it may have? been kinder to euthanize them, because who knows if they will end up at some mite infested pet store.

Totally agree. I'm never going to slam anyone for their decisions on the matter or jump to the conclusion that they came to the easily. When you guys say things like "When you bring an animal into this world it's your responsibility" I agree with that completely. But sometimes culling is responsibility to the person in question. If the responsibility is on the breeder, than the decision is too by definition right?

I would feel much better about the decision to cull a baby than to wholesale it (but I don't judge anyone's decision to wholesale either!!) just because I don't believe that any kind of life worth living is given to corns nobody wants.

I hope I never have to make such a decision, and that's why I've decided to never allow myself to breed more than one pair a season even though I have four pairs I'd like to breed. But I have that luxury because this is just a hobby for me, some people actually do this for a living, or actually supplement their income with sales..

This discussion by the way has been done over some hundred pages or so..

 

[Nanci]

Well, since the big box petstores are all supplied by wholesalers, who get their snakes from breeders large and small, and since nine out of ten new members who come here with their first snake bought it from Petco/Petsmart, and are THRILLED with their new baby, I would hardly say that it's better to cull than to wholesale.

 

[tom e]

Nine out of ten here yes, but that's hardly all the snakes who go through the system. Also people who join a forum tend to be the ones who really care- bad sample group to make that point, in my opinion. They're the good ones..

Everytime I go into a petco, there's about 12 baby corns covered in bugs.. I'd love to believe that 9 out of every 10 of them go somewhere good, but I can't see that.

Anyway, I'm just saying it's more important that the breeder feel comfortable with his decisions than it is that the group does. I would tend to agree with you for MYSELF- for how I decide- But that's an easy thing for me to say, I keep very few snakes..

 

[Nanci]

I don't believe killing healthy animals is a moral solution to a supply and demand problem.