Are we killing the future market?

[HanneysCorn]

Basically only someone who is into corns or plans on breeding them even knows what some of this stuff is.

Jen, I agree with you 100%.

In our country, with the population of the whole nation being that of the state of California, the average person knows corns as being normals, amels, anerys, snows and hypos in their various pattern combinations. Only those who are die-hard corn enthusiasts, mainly breeders, are even aware that other morphs exist.

I've found over the last few years that $200.00 is about the maximum limit for pricing on any morph even if it's the first time it's being offered in Canada. Folks will pay thousands for a ball python morph or a new strain of boa, but corns are 'sissy' snakes to many up here. To some, they present no challenge for husbandry or breeding, and that makes them beginner snakes no matter what colour or pattern they come in. I will say however that many who are breeders of other species are amazed with us corny folk and our genetic advancements, our constant search for new genes to isolate, new phenotypes. But value wise...hey, they are just cornsnakes.

So while that really nice and rare corn snake that there are only a few of out there seems like it SHOULD be worth a grand, realistically there isn't a whole lot of people that interested in corns and want THAT morph (considering the combos and possibilities are just about endless and tastes vary..).

In truth...no cornsnake is worth $1K. It's only worth what the buyer will pay. History has shown to those that follow the new genetic morphs that if you have patience and can wait a year or two, the value will plummet substantially...and may well do so in the first year of production if the breeder can't sell the excess he is willing to part with.

I agree with many here that once you 'sale' an item, even a cornsnake, that now represents to buyers it really is worth less. You've now presented a baseline for pricing for the next year; you've now shown to the next breeder of that morph where to start his pricing for the upcoming season; you've now shown to the buyer that what you thought it was worth...it wasn't.

There are two enemies we currently fight in the corn breeders world of today. One is the economy and the other is overproduction. When there is no demand, supply must be reduced. When there is no money for the luxury of spending even a $100.00 out of a budget which barely covers today's expenses of 'living', how can one expect to not see prices take a nose dive.

Cutting back on production is the first step to stabilizing a market. Until such time as the demand exceeds the supply, the value of what you produce will only continue to go down. The new morphs may be beautiful, rare, and highly wanted in a corn enthusiast's mind, but the reality is, in my country anyways, if you really want to sell what you produce, you have to price them according to what they are worth in the eyes of the buyer, not the breeder. We've shown them time and time again that if they are patient even for 6 months they can purchase that morph for 1/2 or less at the end of the breeding season.

Ruth

 

[KJUN]

The problem is that most of these replies are looking at the SHORT term. That view is what has gotten America in so much trouble - and the LONG view is what has made Japan so dang successful. Cans of beans my go on sale if supply is high (good farming year) or demand is low (rumors that beans are bad for you). However, if people pay $1 for beans today, they will still HAVE to eat next year even if beans are $2. Snakes are different.

We compete with our customers. Many buy low-end snakes for pets. Low end snakes don't pay the bills, and no breeder (real breeder - not weekend warriors) stays in business breeding low in snakes unless the do it in a quantity most of us can't comprehend and wholesale to chain pet stores.....lol. Higher end corns are what keeps most serious breeders in business, and if they ALL went out of business, the number of new morphs would trickle down to almost nothing. Those guys are the ones DRIVING the diversity. Why? Because they make money on them.

Take Jeff's joke about poeple getting out of the morphs he is working with. Obviously, that is a joke....but lets pretend it really did happen. Jeff would be unable to sell any of the snakes in a year because he would lack buyers. We NEED people working with the same morph as us because THEY are the ones buying them. Heck, he'd be sending lavas to pet stores as $10 hypos because he couldn't find a REAL buyer. Basic economics - people buy high end stuff because they believe they can make a dollar when THEY breed them. (Sorry, Jeff - I'm not picking on you - this is just an example that your joke made me think about. No offense or implication meant.)

If breeders drop the price too fast & too much (especially ones that at least pretend they do this for a living - and I see those posting on kingsnake.com all of the time), it gives people the impression that they are NOT investment animals....and people don't buy them for any price at all. If a big breeder has a sale and places a snake that was $500 up for $250, the new price WILL be $250 because that's all people remember. The "sale" is just a gimmick and people know it. I'm not talking about half of sales with a minimum order, free shipping, etc. We are only talking about a drastic price drop. People will remember it, think the snake isn't worth that much, and know that they WILL go lower if they just wait. In other words, it destroys the idea that snakes are investment animals, and you lose your best buyers. With them, you can lose your ability to make a profit.

In other words, yes. Bad marketing and extreme price dropping in destroying the market. It WILL lead to fewer morphs being developed. It will hurt the real breeders (the most productive individuals in our hobby!) much more than the weekend warrior-types. I've got a list of people that I think are the worst price droppers on new morphs. Those people will never get a penny discount from me (since they are the ones likely to hurt markets I dabble in down the road) nor are they likely to get much business from me. No, I won't share the list - it's my personal group of people I'm not very pleased with right now. Nothing more. Of course, one of these days I'm gonna get pissed enough to show people what market crashing REALLY means. I can't say that I haven't been tempted!

The secret is very simple. VERY SIMPLE, but most people are too cheap to do it. First, only produce to your demand. Let demand dictate prices on morphs - not supply. This is the hardest one to do unless YOU are the only one with the morph at that time, but people learn that others will crash the market....so they can just wait. Second, wholesale. It is MUCH better for the market to wholesale a $100 snake for $20 behind the scenes than to retail it for $50. The first case doesn't crash the market like the second case does. Most people are too cheap and short-sighted to do that, though. Don't wholesale to avoid feeding babies - wholesale to protect the future market. ALL of our future markets. Heck, GIVE snakes away before selling them too cheap. Just make people promise to not say you GAVE them away. Feed them to kingsnakes - I don't care......lol. Just don't destroy the market to make a couple dollars. Your pride should be worth more than that.

Finally, we live in a world where we ALL have to cut our prices so that we don't look like the bad guy....or lose business forever. the problem is that the snakes aren't selling for the lower price, either. There IS no real market value on snakes when there is a temporary slump in buying. A $1000 snake might sell for that price next year if no market crashing occurs, but it won't sell for $300 right now....because "nobody" is buying. THAT is the damage. If a 40% drop in prices made things SELL, then my stance would be completely different. The fact that sales still don't occur shows that price is not the number one reason that particular animal did not sell. Period. Bad marketing in a worse economy.......

Again, lose a years sales to make good money NEXT year. Long term views usually succeed better than short term views. It's the people destroying the market NOW that make this impossible. We did have a spike in prices that is IMO too much for cornsnakes. $3000 for one combination cornsnake? I'll sell them at that price, but not buy......lol. That guy with the white corn claiming it was worth 6 figures? I'm still laughing over that jest. $2000 for a new gene isn't the least bit unreasonable if it allows a limited number to get in on the GROUND FLOOR where they can make money before the price drops..........but I think even that is a little unreasonable for a new combination of old genes. I don't reject a market adjustment, but we have swung WAY too far the other way. It has many people considering not even releasing new genes and combination for a year or two until the economy returns. How does this help the hobby? It doesn't, but I think it may be a smart business move to make....and I actually applaud people who are trying to do SOMETHING like that to help maintain the investment value of snakes in the long run.

KJ

 

[KJUN]

In truth...no cornsnake is worth $1K. It's only worth what the buyer will pay. History has shown to those that follow the new genetic morphs that if you have patience and can wait a year or two, the value will plummet substantially...and may well do so in the first year of production if the breeder can't sell the excess he is willing to part with.

Mike isn't talking about normal depreciation of crappy market pricing from the start. Mike is talking about a temporary market slump (temporary being the key word) and over-reaction by hobbyists. Take an imaginary scenario. Lets say people didn't over-react and just sat on their snakes (or sold them to a wholesaler - whatever) for a year. They didn't drop their prices. There would be normal depreciation, but prices would still be fair next year (or whenever) when the economy recovers. Take the current actual situation, though, where people over-react and CRASH prices...and then we see normal depreciation on that price when the economy improves. Snake prices never go up to where they were before...... That is the big difference.

Market crashing hurts the productive (big) breeders more than the little guys. Without them keeping prices up some, not even the little people can make money. No economy means the production of new morphs becomes stale and ceases. If I had a new morph and I thought I could only get $50 for it, I wouldn't even bother to reproduce it. (This is an extreme example, but you should get my point). At that price, it isn't worth the hassle or the expense. I'd let them live and die here without ever selling one one. Imagine the diversity we'd lose if people COULDN'T make money at these.

....and I'm talking about the US here. Canada, with its low population and other factors, is a different story. Your market is different, and it doesn't really affect our market. If people won't buy high end corns, it is because no market has been created or people have already been convinced that cornsnakes are not investment animals. Both of those things take WORK - they don't happen on their own by magic. Face it, one clutch there probably has the same effect as 50 clutches here.....lol. Y'all may be screwed before he game even starts, eh? Sorry 'bout that.

 

[El Jefe]

.....so I suggest half of you bail now...especially those working on lava, sunkissed, or other morphs I'm working on.

Take Jeff's joke about people getting out of the morphs he is working with. Obviously, that is a joke....but lets pretend it really did happen. Jeff would be unable to sell any of the snakes in a year because he would lack buyers. We NEED people working with the same morph as us because THEY are the ones buying them. Heck, he'd be sending lavas to pet stores as $10 hypos because he couldn't find a REAL buyer. Basic economics - people buy high end stuff because they believe they can make a dollar when THEY breed them. (Sorry, Jeff - I'm not picking on you - this is just an example that your joke made me think about. No offense or implication meant.)
KJ

Notice I said HALF need to bail....I'll keep selling to the other half!

 

[HanneysCorn]

Lets say people didn't over-react and just sat on their snakes (or sold them to a wholesaler - whatever) for a year. They didn't drop their prices. There would be normal depreciation, but prices would still be fair next year (or whenever) when the economy recovers.

KJUN...I agree completely with the concept of selling to a wholesaler to stablize pricing. At least then the market isn't affected directly. In most cases by the time the consumer, thru the pet store viewing of such morphs, sees the retail price, it encourages them to seek out breeder direct buys.

Imagine the diversity we'd lose if people COULDN'T make money at these.

Ah, yes, I see it from a point of business breeders, but hobbiest breeders aren't looking to get rich on breeding cornsnakes. They are looking to overall decrease their costs (expenses) of feeding, heating, replacing supplies associated with the hobby.

Your market is different, and it doesn't really affect our market. If people won't buy high end corns, it is because no market has been created or people have already been convinced that cornsnakes are not investment animals. Both of those things take WORK - they don't happen on their own by magic. Face it, one clutch there probably has the same effect as 50 clutches here.....lol. Y'all may be screwed before he game even starts, eh? Sorry 'bout that.

In truth, it can affect your market and that is something that has arisen over the last few years. When breeders can't sell within their own country they may look for other markets. Often those markets may have an immediate demand for a few, but again, not long term. This can often provide a false 'demand' in the U.S. market that tempts some to think that 'if I can't sell it here, I'll sell it there'. It is an immediate bandaid but not a cure for the reality of overproducing.

You speak of the normal gradual decline in prices which all products, living or inaniminate take as more become available. It is inevitable no matter where we live, in the U.S., Canada, Europe. As the supply increases, and if the demand doesn't correspond, then alternative stategies are necessary. Unfortunately, cornsnake genetics and all its wonders and possibilities aren't as popular here as in the U.S. There are few breeders here who only work with corns; most diversify into milks, balls, boas and other pythons which will command the higher price and give return on their investment.

You are correct and I'm happy to see that some do understand the whole picture of things. One or two clutches of a high end morph do suffice for the whole of the Canadian market and do fill the demand. Each year sees more and more interest in corns which is done thru education and hard work.

Producing only for the demand is the way to stablilize and keep value in our corns. Excesses not sold each season at fair market values should either be held back by the breeder or wholesaled, if the expenses for doing so are biting into the breeder's pocket book. We are in complete agreement here. Reducing the pricing, as you have said, has a short term effect which is proving not to work...no buyers anyways...but will and does have a long term effect that needs to be recognized as ultimately detrimental to the hobby as a whole.

But I do believe that for those who wish to breed, and we can't control who does or does not breed each season, responsibility, realism and ethics needs to be fine tuned. I don't agree with crashing a market in any one's country...especially thru ignorance that there is a demand when the economy is this unstable. One must also understand the market they sell to; what is viable, what will sell and at what price. I don't believe in 'end of the year' sales...I believe in realistic production, fair pricing, and being responsible if what you thought was the demand really wasn't. I'd rather have empty shelves and a waiting list for next season due to underproduction than worry about where I'm going to find homes this season.

Long term is where I am most concerned...not next year, not even two years from now. Eventually the economy, I hope, will turn around and folks will get back to having excess $$$ to spend on luxuries. My concern is, and always has been that we don't manage to crash the value (and that value is not necessarily monetary) in the meantime simply because we aren't willing to recognize there is a problem in overproducing at a time when there is no demand.

The buyers see it one way...cheap pricing is great. The breeders see it in an entirely different way...there is no return on the time and hard work, the energy invested...there is no incentive to continue the exploration of cornsnake genetics. In this economy we can still make choices...BUT the realizing that those choices will have an effect long term is wisdom some are just not accepting unfortunately. The one good thing that I do see coming out of these huge reductions in pricing on high end morphs is that it will separate those who do it for the love of corn genetics and all its mysteries and those who do it simply thinking it is a quick scheme to make money.

I've never considered any of my cornsnakes an 'investment'...something to turn a profit on. They are beautiful creatures who offer me the ability to create and explore all the genetic possibilites that my gene pool can offer.

Ruth

 

[Chip]

Ya know, if Microsoft goes to $10 a share, there will be some people that will sell like mad. But more investors will buy all they can afford and drive the price back up. It seems if people slash prices too low, other breeders would simply buy them out for the bargain prices and to get them off the market. Is this not occurring in the reptile industry?

 

[Drizzt80]

When we're talking of wholesaling a high end morph, are we speaking of hets or the visual morph? I can see wholesaling out Normals het "newest rare morph", but wholesaling the homo variety seems like your giving a gift of profit to the wholesaler (who actually, in my experience, could care less it's a new rare morph). Everything else makes some pretty decent sense for the most part.

I think a basic underlying "problem" stills comes down to the fact that cornsnakes are (virtually) idiot proof. :shrugs: I don't hang out at the ball python boards, but do you see the "I got eggs, what do I do now?" posts as often as you do on cornsnake boards? Compared to ball pythons with their 4-6 eggs per clutch after 4 years, new genes from cornsnakes averaging 15-20 eggs within 2 years can physically get spread into the market so much quicker.

Just some additional thoughts.
D80

 

[crackerhead]

First off, great topic Mike.
I do shows at least twice a month and I've seen first hand the slump in sales as compared with last year or previous years. Vendors complain that they can't give their animals away. Much of what we are seeing is perception or as some call it marketing. People are surrounded by gloom and doom economic reports. Money is tight, so sales suffer. My husband analogized it so well with regard to investment in the market. He was feeling leery about buying at the moment due to the low values in the market and because our own retirement/college investments have taken a beating. But if you think about it NOW is the time to buy. You wouldn't say,"Oh, I can't buy that car it's on sale." "I'll wait until the price goes up." I look at snakes the same way. I would be buying Stephen's Ultramel Lavs if it wasn't 16 F here. Heck I'd be buying other animals too. I'm sorry that breeders need to lower their prices, myself included, but it allows for great opportunities. I took advantage of Rich's half price sale. How could I not?
I love genetics! That is why I do this. It's about the future. Who can breed animals without thinking a few years out? Yah, those shortsighted people are screwed by present conditions, but buyers and breeders shouldn't be nervous. Buyers because it's your market right now, enjoy and breeders because times like these winnows the chaff from the grain! The snake market is basically no different from any other capitalistic endeavor. There are ups and downs but long term, and that is the key, it all evens out. So maybe the ridiculously high price days are gone for now but I don't see that as a necessarily bad thing. I say ride it out. When the economy loosens up, and it will, breeders will again enjoy their moderate successes. History is full of these economic blimps. Come on folks, at one point in time, not long ago, people killed each other over Cabbage Patch Dolls, Beanie Babies, Pet Rocks and Pokemon! And yet we are all still here, as though none of that ever happened. Produce less, wholesale when you can, concentrate on less projects, be flexible and most of all be patient. This too shall pass.
Terri

 

[ghosthousecorns]

KJUN said

Low end snakes don't pay the bills, and no breeder (real breeder - not weekend warriors) stays in business breeding low in snakes unless the do it in a quantity most of us can't comprehend and wholesale to chain pet stores.....lol. Higher end corns are what keeps most serious breeders in business

I think most breeders are not in a position where breeding snakes is their only business. The majority of corn buyers are those "weekend warriors" for whom a thousand dollar snake is a huge expenditure, a risky investment but still worth it to them if they like the morph and want to be able to work with it. I think many start with the low end stuff, build up their collection, buy nicer snakes as they are able to afford it, etc. The process of becoming what you would call a true "serious breeder" is time consuming unless you have cash to buy your way in starting with higher end stuff. Many people still want a shot at those rare morphs but use hets instead. Here's another thought... By using hets those clutches may have a few of the target snakes but also a whole lot hets and of "poss hets" are produced. I know a lot of the "het new morph" get wholesaled to as just normals. I have seen people say they do it. Any snake at any petco could be carrying some hidden genes that would blow your socks off...

The idea of buying the snakes that are sold too cheap to take them off the market, I don't think that is happening. I don't know why but I have a feeling most of us don't have the kind of money that would take. I would suspect there is some behind the scenes things that take place, like one breeder offering to buy whatever unwanted snakes another breeder has or both agreeing on a price before selling, but unless the two breeders are buddies what you are more likely to see is A charges $700, so B puts a price of $650... And this kind of competition I think is fine... It's when people really slash the price way down, charging 30 to 50 percent less than the other guy that you see the morph value really drop.

I have to agree with the "sit on them or wholesale them" solution. That's pretty much what I am doing. It's when people post "We are selling these 08 cheap because we need to clear the racks to make room for 09's" That I have to wonder why are they planning to breed 09's when the 08's did not sell? LOL

 

[ComoxCorn]

It is very apparent from reading the classifieds here that there are many breeders facing difficulties in clearing their '08 stock. I am one who watches prices carefully, and frankly I am amazed at how low some pricing has become, and I do agree that this does not help the overall market. I think breeders should be fairly compensated for the time and efforts they have put into their projects. That said, I also believe that over producing in a weakened economy is also hurting your market.
I will be breeding corns for the first time in 2009. I have also watched Canadian trends carefully and HAVE paid attention to all views I have read in various sites. Canada's market differs greatly from the US market. Shipping is not as easy as it is in the US. Many breeders rely on reptile shows to market their snakes. Pricing here differs from pricing in the US. Many morphs sell in Canada at a higher cost. But there are fewer breeders producing certain morphs also. I am not a big believer in producing snakes for the wholesale market. That does not mean I will not sell to a wholesaler, it simply means that I intend to produce only what I think I can sell. As far as pricing here in Canada, I think it is hard not to look at what different morphs are priced at in the US market. This might just be an off year, I don't know, but the economy has gone places it hasn't gone in a number of years. I do agree with KJUN that LONG TERM is where one needs to focus and not short term, sell while you can marketing. My plans are to breed strictly as a hobbiest. To the best of my knowledge, there are only a couple of breeders doing it as their livelihood. When I put a price on the snakes I sell, I will consider both of these breeders pricing as a means of pricing my own snakes I produce. I've also mentioned in other threads I would prefer to gift away any of my excesses, which should be limited, as I do not plan on large scale breeding, but I do plan on well thought out projects that I believe will sell here in Canada.

 

[El Jefe]

Ya know, if Microsoft goes to $10 a share, there will be some people that will sell like mad. But more investors will buy all they can afford and drive the price back up. It seems if people slash prices too low, other breeders would simply buy them out for the bargain prices and to get them off the market. Is this not occurring in the reptile industry?

Hit the nail on the head!!!

If the prices were really THAT low then that would be what happened. In my opinion, however, prices are getting to where they should be and people are upset their project that comes to fruition next year or is sitting on the shelf is now taking an huge hit. No one likes to see that. I know I sure don't when it happens to me but I'll live....cornsnakes are in no way my sole livelihood nor do I ever plan them to be. (It would be nice but I don't see it happening) I do feel sorry for the big people but I think they've been in the biz long enough to see this thing before and cushion the blow by having many projects and a good name among other strategies.

 

[KJUN]

Is this not occurring in the reptile industry?

Hit the nail on the head!!!

Actually, that can't always happen and Jeff is wrong here (sorry Jeff) - because the analogy is false. Shares don't "die." Shares does get sold as nonfeeders when they aren't. Shares go up or down. That's about it. Shares don't BREED. Shares don't need to be fed or poop cleaned.....etc. Take me. U trade snakes for guns. I'll give more in trade for a gun than I will for a cash trade because guns don't eat, die, or cost me to keep. All they cost is some storage space. They don't breed for the person that DOES buy them, and the person I buy it from isn't making more the next week!

PLUS, you mentioned microsoft shares - that iis ONE company. If it was one "weekend warrior" crashing the market - like one price crasher at a show - you buy them out. I've done it. Many serious breeders have done it. You can do that with one company, but we aren't dealing with one company with short sited people here. We are dealing with a LOT of people that are too cheap to take the long view. You can not beat that.

In essense, I still say we are hurting ourselves in the long run. HOWEVER, I also do not believe that there is ANYTHING we can do about it. It's just the nature of this beast.

When we're talking of wholesaling a high end morph, are we speaking of hets or the visual morph? I can see wholesaling out Normals het "newest rare morph", but wholesaling the homo variety seems like your giving a gift of profit to the wholesaler (who actually, in my experience, could care less it's a new rare morph). Everything else makes some pretty decent sense for the most part.

Better that than killing the marker IMO. HOWEVER, it depends on the morph. Take a lava anerythristic. Sell it to pet stores as WYSIWYG. Someone likes the look, they buy it not caring the genetics, and you don't crash the market. Most of you would be surprised at some of the high end morphs I've sent to pet stores as non-disclosed morphs. You can't really do that with amber stripes and motleys since they can only be confused with goldlusts....and they aren't pet store stuff, either. STILL, lots of other morphs can be mixed into similar things and sold by color and not genetics.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I wanted to revisit the point made by Brent about how you don't see "oops I found eggs" in a BP discussion board like you would here. I don't know if that's true but the sad thing is those "oops" eggs often go on to hatch successfully and end up for sale too. Even "oops" eggs that are found a couple of days later all dehydrated, are saved because of people telling the "oops" breeder what to do to rehydrate them and how to incubate. Am I getting meaner? I don't know, but I am starting to understand why some people might reply "just put those eggs in the freezer". I actually froze some second clutches of 08 eggs earlier this year. I think the fact I did this may bother some, but I knew I had enough babies already and enough was enough. I do see the point of view that they all have a right to live and go to good homes, but if reality is there are more available snakes than homes, I'd rather see their lives end before they have a chance to go someplace where they were just a cheap snake owned by a cheap person who will not spend much on their enclosure and needs if they were not willing to spend that much to get the snake.

 

[carol]

In a recent ad, a snake that would have been $1000 only 8 months ago. Now it is $200? another ad, has a pair of snakes (ultramel lav and het) for $200 as well, 8 months ago, that pair would have been much nearer to $700.

So, what are we telling the buying public? Are we telling them that all you have to do is wait 8 months and then you can get any morph you want for $200 or less?

If wee drop prices now, when times are hard, when it gets better and the market goes up, what will people expect? Will they expect to pay $1000 for a $1000 snake, or will they still expect to pay $200 for a $1000 snake?

So are we killing the future market? Will we ever be able to hope to sell an animal at $1000 or more?

Well honestly, you'll never get a clutch of all $1,000 corns. Once there are more than a dozen in existance, the price begins to drop. After that point, anyone willing to pay the $1,000 has already done so. Combine that with more being produced and there is only one way to go, down. The very second you sell the $1,000 morph, you devalue the remaining stock because there is one more breeder out there with them. There is no way around it. You can get a few rare $1000 beauties out of breeding hets, but by the time you have a homo breeding pair, it's time to look forward and not stall more than a season or two with that morph.

A lot of people decide or are forced by finances to wait until prices drop, and that's OK for many reasons. Like I said, there is no such thing as an entire clutch of $1,000 corns, but a whole clutch of $200 corns is much more reasonable. And what's wrong with that? That's still a big chunk of change over what they cost to responsibly produce. The way I see it the more people who wait for prices to drop, the less compitition I will have for higher morphs down the road. Just waiting one more year sets them back, and when they don't realize that time is of the essence, they will usually also make the mistake of buying a pair and raising them to produce more of the same. With so many people breeding, you can't expect to sit on one morph for too long unless you are going to specialize in it and that's even a risk.

IMO, anyone who waits for the price to drop will never get a huge return by the time those animals are breeding age. As soon as I get a breeding aged pair of a new morph, my efforts are not usually concentrated on making more of them unless I really like them or see something in my stock that is unique and worth pursuing. Otherwise, my efforts go into using that morph to create a new one right off the bat. For example, I've got a male Lava Blood that may be breedable this season. I'm more interested in using him to make stock for Topaz Bloods, Sunkissed Lava Bloods, Lava Lavender Bloods, Ice Bloods etc than for making more Lava Bloods. I do think that morph is beautiful enough, and Lavas are rare enough for the Lava Bloods to keep a great value for some time, but I'm not going to put all my eggs in it.

The $1,000 market is VERY limited. So I'm very happy for the people who will still pay $200. I still get a decent price, they get what they want, and I don't have to worry about those snakes becoming my competition since I'm sure I will have moved on from that morph in the 2-3 years it takes to raise them to breeding size.

I remember when some people who got into Lav Stripes a little late were totally freaked when the prices dropped and played the blame game. It was bound to happen as soon as enough people had them. It really was a mistake for them to buy the animals to try and make more of the same thing, they should have been mixing them with there Anery/Ghost Stripes or Caramel Stripes. :noevil:

 

[carol]

One more note I forgot to add.

As I mentioned, in my experience, $1,000 snakes only come out of hets. Usually in that case it's at least a double homo morph so to have produced it, I will also have produced approx. 15 other possible het hatchlings that no one will even pay $20 for.
If you have a homo breeding pair of a morph that's dropped down to $100 each, you will still make more money than that clutch that made the $1,000 morph with the same amount of work. So I think anything over $100 really isn't a disappointment.

 

[KJUN]

> Well honestly, you'll never get a clutch of all $1,000 corns. Once there are more than a dozen in existance, the price begins to drop.

Well, I know of at least 20 pied-sided bloodreds that each sold for over $1000/each, but I agree that this is not the norm in cornsnakes.....but that is the difference between a new GENE and a new gene COMBO. The problem are snakes that go for $2000 one week and then are getting posted for $200 a month later.

> IMO, anyone who waits for the price to drop will never get a huge return by the time those animals are breeding age.

BINGO. Well said. I've always said get them first or AFTER the major drop in price....not AS they begin to drop. The trick is knowing exactly when NOT to buy.

That is STILL not the case Mike was talking about here. Mike was talking about knee jerk reactions to a temporary market slump - and everyone keeps talking about typical (and expected) normal depreciation of the morph.

 

[carol]

> Well honestly, you'll never get a clutch of all $1,000 corns. Once there are more than a dozen in existance, the price begins to drop.

Well, I know of at least 20 pied-sided bloodreds that each sold for over $1000/each, but I agree that this is not the norm in cornsnakes.....but that is the difference between a new GENE and a new gene COMBO. The problem are snakes that go for $2000 one week and then are getting posted for $200 a month later.

Ya, I think that's the only exception. If you produce a new gene and keep them all until you have homo breeders you can do it. But that is extremely rare (as rare as producing a new gene). Still a good reminder to never say never. :0)

And ya, I usually will wait a few months of not selling something before dropping the price and then to do so gradually unless I'm in real need.

 

[Nanci]

PS I just want to say that I can't realistically justify paying $1000 for a pet snake (that I may never breed, but will still enjoy aesthetically no matter what), so for those who have half price sales for whatever reason, God bless you and I will appreciate those good deals more than you will ever know.

 

[Chip]

If an animal of mine winds up in your hands, this is one case in which "I'm cool with that." But you're Nanci, most folks are some stranger's whose name I only memorize later on Kingsnake... selling an entire damn clutch of my progeny for the cost I sold 1.1 for two/three years prior! But the market is the market. And more than a time or two I've had people call me when giagae, real Okeetees, subocs, or what have ya were all bought out cheap from the folks with one pair and I held my price and still sold out. But it's not the norm, and even a headache then.
We all want the the best deal we can get when we want to get into a project. And yet are somehow bold enough to want a fair (and usually decreased) value on what we produce, but not decreased enough that we LOSE money! I swear, if we would look at everything from fish breeders to cattle guys, we would really have our eyes opened to the free market.

 

[El Jefe]

If it was one "weekend warrior" crashing the market - like one price crasher at a show - you buy them out. I've done it. Many serious breeders have done it. You can do that with one company, but we aren't dealing with one company with short sited people here. We are dealing with a LOT of people that are too cheap to take the long view. You can not beat that.

Nah...I still disagree. Here was why this thread was started:

In a recent ad, a snake that would have been $1000 only 8 months ago. Now it is $200? another ad, has a pair of snakes (ultramel lav and het) for $200 as well, 8 months ago, that pair would have been much nearer to $700.

These are high end snakes at a great price. You claim we are dealing with a lot of people. Hmmm... How many people out there really have the ultramel lavenders or ultramel bloods AND are posting them for these low prices? I'd bet not many. In fact, I bet it would be hard to point me to several ads that have them this low. Stephen is one person who is selling a few snakes at a great price. If those snakes he was selling were so valuable and "worth" so much, he would have been able to sell them at the higher price...and even if he couldn't because of the economy or other factors, his low price should make them appeal to a competitor. If you also had some, you could buy him out and then keep your price. Furthermore, in buying him out other people are unable to do so and consequently there are no more low priced corns for others to compare to and your higher priced corns are all that are left.

Granted this changes when there are several people cutting their prices...but several people are cutting their prices because the high prices aren't doing it.

Well, I know of at least 20 pied-sided bloodreds that each sold for over $1000/each, but I agree that this is not the norm in cornsnakes.....but that is the difference between a new GENE and a new gene COMBO.

I think this is one type that had a lot of hype. A good marketing campaign. Great Job...I applaud the producers of pied-sideds for being able to SELL their snakes for that....impressive. That being said, however, I don't think we've heard the end of this story. I know it has been seen in some lines that pied-sided to pied-sided doesn't always produce 100% pied-sided. How many people are going to be happy paying $1000 for a snake when it doesn't produce the way they want it to? Hope they got a good guarantee.

The problem are snakes that go for $2000 one week and then are getting posted for $200 a month later.

I haven't seen any of these. Please point me to an example. I'd like to see where it was SELLING at $2000...not just priced $2000. I can price a normal at $500....doesn't mean it will SELL for $500.