Are we killing the future market?

[Vinman]

You have to spread the word , Thigs just dont happen over night. You can controol who get what, I have been doing it for many years. You are on a pulic forum the word can spread fast. Yes we are all going to have to pull together as a team. Over the years I seen people buy a corn for 100 buck by the time they are producing young it may be worth 75 bucks, but they sell it for 50 and get rid of every last one and the market price. You cant control every one . But you have to knowe who you are selling to. Over my many years in the business I have seen people get into a high dollar animal. Have no reputation of being a breeder and sell animals way under cost just to get rid of their stock. I have seen tis in less costly animals too. like when amels were selling for 25 and you are at a show . Some bannana head just produced 100 of the and cant take feeding all the hatchlings. He just wants to unload them so instead of bringing them to a wholesaler or a vendor at the show. they get a table at the show and sell them for 10 bucks a pice. I dont sell to these people and when they want to buy my animals I tell them why and spread the word about their business dealings. Other breeders see the picture and we all agree not to sell that person anthing. If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. You have to use your smarts instead of just produceing animals because you can . Now that I have got a couple of people in europe I'm not worried of letting all my best stock I have for sell here in the states. I rather sell the top animals ,choice pick to europe instead of competing aganist my own stock here in the states

 

[Vinman]

You are a seasoned breeder D80. Tell me you have not seen what i'm talking about. Yes that is what I'm saying . breeders need to educate customers. They need to stear them away from high dollar animals. I have said many times over the years.

EXP.
Dont get into these just yet. Try breeding something cheap, learn to work with the animals first. Get a reputation of breeding some quilty animals that are less inexpencive. See if you are able to get rid of these first before you get into the high end stuff . It make no sence for you to invest in such a expencive animal when no one knows who you are or to trust you. Build up a repuation and a customer base befor you jump into it with both eyes shut.

Yes drizz you have to take responsibility in starting out new breeders. This is your investment we are talking about I have steered many a people away from going over their heads. At the same token it also protects my investment.

I breed fish, african cichlids since 1980. I mostly work with WC animals. I have steered many people from buying my expencive F1 babies for some cheap captive strains. My words are wise and simple. Breed these frist, you dont have the customer base for these fish. Get some experience first breeding the cheap stuff, Get your name around the hobby then go for the big buck fish or the high price WC fish.

Exp I have adult WC yellow labs from LionsCove they are rare as wild caughts, 100 a pair wholesale. A.S. (aquarium strain) yellow labs at the same size are 5 bucks each at the same size and have been hybridnized to inhance their color and reduce the black markings. No use buying wild if you cant get rid of the AS yellows. When the breed them no one knows who they are and is going to have a tuff time selling F1 babies for 5 buck ea so they will sell them cheap that takes customers away from me who are willing to pay the high price

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I guess I can see why you would want to do that. It's nice that you have a market in Europe (though I wonder if the European breeders are that thrilled about the imports) but that is not doable for everyone!
I have sold a lot of my stuff to new breeders or people who want to breed in coming years, as a matter of fact Joe Schmoe is like 90% of my sales and I like the fact new people get into the hobby with all their new enthusiasm and ideas. It's up to them to sink or swim, be smart and come up with new combos or be clever about the marketing and think of ways to sell or end up overloaded and give up . But if they don't buy their snake from me they will from someone because they want it and can pay for it.
It bugs me just as much as anybody to see these $12 corns at shows, but I guess in my mind I don't feel like I am this big corn snake authority to decide who should breed and who is just a Joe Schmoe. Like Brent I am relatively new, and I have a feeling if there WAS a list I would not be on it or be ranked pretty low. But if I had the money to pay for it I am sure I would still be able to buy what I wanted. I somehow doubt that would matter much to someone like Rich Z that he never heard of me if I had the money to buy a snake he had for sale.. Maybe if he wants to keep it to himself it just doesn't go on the list.
BTW a few years ago, I sold some ghost stripes and when the buyer produced more he asked me about what I was selling them for because he didn't want to undercut me!! I was surprised and grateful but not everybody will be this considerate.

 

[Vinman]

Like I said pick and chose your customers. I'll give you ag gosd EXP. Carol at low belly reptiles . A very nice person, Has great animals has been know to do the right thing wnen someone has a problem , is a big breeder. Would I sell her a new gene morph. NO, why if she if so reputable. One reason and one reason only She is a under cutter. Thats right . I would have to protect myself and my investment. Carol had got the cinder gene by accedent. She produced the animal as a fluke the parents were traced back to RZ stock. Rich Z had already produced the same new gene morph and set a high price on the animal. In stead of setting the price with Rich, she went on a thread that RZ posted on and right out in the open view of everyone told Rich she was going under cut him and had the BALLS to do it on his own forum. Now we were not talking a few dollars we were talking a huge chunck of the price. Why would anyone want to sell a new gene to a big breeder with that mind set. I dont care how cool the person is but with that statment I have to look out for myself and my customers investment.

 

[bitsy]

I wonder if Vinman's approach would work in any other industry?
__________

Car Showroom

Customer: Wow! Those Ferraris sure look purty! Even though I'm only nineteen and got my driver's licence two months ago, I have a shedload of money in my pocket, and I'd like one of those please.

Salesman: I'd really recommend you start out with something more suited to your abilities Sir. Have you considered a Honda of some sort? Maybe you could buy a Ferrari in a couple of years' time, when you've learned how to stay on the road.

*Customer leaves and buys from the Ferrari showroom down the road*
___________

Sorry, but I don't see it happening. Market forces, supply & demand - in a free market economy, they rule.

Price fixing and trying to manage the market? A waste of time. You'll end up no better off financially and with significantly higher blood pressure. For every person who decides to stick to whatever set of "Rules" are decided, there will be ten people who see that they can take advantage by not following them.

I sell to a shop. They sell to other people who in three years time may well be breeding my morphs and undercutting me. If I don't like it, I'll have to get out of breeding.

The only way to keep rare morphs rare - and therefore more expensive - is to stop breeding them. Good luck with that. Don't think I'll be joining the party.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Like I said pick and chose your customers. I'll give you ag gosd EXP. Carol at low belly reptiles . A very nice person, Has great animals has been know to do the right tjing wnen someone has a problem , is a big breeder. Would I sell he a new gene morph. NO, why if she if so reputable. One reason and one reason only She is a under cutter. Thats right . I would have to protect myself and my investment. Carol had got the cinder gene by accedent. She produced the animal as a fluke the parents were traced back to RZ stock. Rich Z had already produced the same new gene morph and set a high price on the animal. In stead of setting the price with Rich, she went on a thread that RZ posted on and right out in the open view of everyone told Rich she was going under cut him and had the BALLS to do it on his own forum. Now we were not talking a few dollars we were talking a huge chunck of the price. Why would anyone want to sell a new gene to a big breeder with that mind set. I dont care how cool the person is but with that statment I have to look out for myself and my customers investment.

You got a link to back this up?
I have been around here for a while and I don't remember this. I do remember the threads she posted when Cinder first cropped up and she was trying to figure out if it was anery A or charcoal...and I remember Rich saying it had popped up at his facility as well... but I do not remember any of their prices being discussed. I was under the impression that clutch of Carols was the first time either one of them had noticed there was something different going on. I could be wrong but here is the threads anyway:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12620
and
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15977
I have animals from these lines from both of them! And by the time I produce one the prices will have dropped pretty drastically but money isn't why I want one anyway.

 

[Drizzt80]

I don't really know where to begin, or why even bother. But when it rains it pours!

You can controol who get what, I have been doing it for many years.

The gas stations around here do that too. Every station has exactly the same price. Lots of fun. Really "fair"! Especially considering a city exactly 1 hour to the south of us is 20+ cents a gallon cheaper . . . 20+ cents!!!

Over the years I seen people buy a corn for 100 buck by the time they are producing young it may be worth 75 bucks, but they sell it for 50 and get rid of every last one and the market price. You cant control every one . But you have to knowe who you are selling to.

Do you have a questionnaire? Is there a contract to be signed? I'm curious just how you control the purchaser of your animals . . . ???

Other breeders see the picture and we all agree not to sell that person anthing.

Again, I'd love to see that list. I didn't know there was a list. Who decides who's on that list? What's the criteria for ending up on that list. If you're not on the list how do you get on, if you're on, how do you get off?

I rather sell the top animals ,choice pick to europe instead of competing aganist my own stock here in the states

So YOU are just undercutting a different market. That makes it okay I suppose? :shrugs:

You are a seasoned breeder D80. Tell me you have not seen what i'm talking about.

I have. In general it's a natural progression of supply and demand. Honestly, tell me exactly why a $1000 snake is worth a $1000 when it can just as easily be fed to a kingsnake that would take a 14 cent feeder pinky . . .

Yes that is what I'm saying . breeders need to educate customers. They need to stear them away from high dollar animals. I have said many times over the years.

So you're trying to remove competition. That's greedy in my opinion. <----different thread, similar topic!

I have steered many a people away from going over their heads.

Who are YOU exactly to decide what's over someone else's head?!

(though I wonder if the European breeders are that thrilled about the imports)

I know the Canadian breeders aren't . . .

Like I said pick and chose your customers. I'll give you ag gosd EXP. Carol at low belly reptiles . A very nice person, Has great animals has been know to do the right tjing wnen someone has a problem , is a big breeder. Would I sell he a new gene morph. NO, why if she if so reputable. One reason and one reason only She is a under cutter.

Tell us how you really feel!! Regardless of differences I have had with Carol, I have also sold her animals and purchased from her. She would NOT be added to the blacklist that you want to create for the industry. :shrugs: Her differences with Rich are between them . . . I'm also not interested in Ashy/Cinder/Z/Anery C in the least, so it's really none of my concern either. Her perceived, or intentional, undercutting of Rich at the time was a personal vendetta between the two of them, not the situation that the Mike indicated in this thread.

D80

 

[Drizzt80]

PS. I've got this brand new Dorbunkle gene that is amazing, simply amazing. It's like nothing you've ever seen before. I hatched out 6 of them. Sorry, can't sell you any. They're worth $2000 apiece, but I just can't sell you any. Why? Well, duh, you'll breed them and then sell them for less than me. So I can't sell you any. I'm rich and wealthy now!!! Oh, wait a minute . . .

D80

 

[starsevol]

He's makin' a list...
checkin' it twice...
gonna find out who's naughty or nice.....

 

[El Jefe]

Ruining the market? Curtail breeding to help the team?

WHAT THE?????

Are you serious?

We live in a capitalistic market...plain and simple. You make something and you try to sell it. In the reptile world we end up producing something that produces itself. In so doing, the buyer will now be producing and so the beat goes on. You are endangering your OWN market by selling. Get over it. If you don't want competition, get out of this business and start making do-hicky's that don't replicate. Become a bead maker, woodworker, metalsmith, artist...anything that doesn't replicate itself and you'll control your market (for a time) if your product is truly unique. Eventually, however, even your do-hicky will attract attention and other people will attempt to make a better do-hicky and compete with you. So...you lose everywhere unless you keep going and make better do-hickys OR your name and reputation is so IMPORTANT it doesn't matter what the price is, your buyers want YOUR animal…..good luck with that one Ralph Lauren and Fitch of Cornsnakes.

Translated to our market....if your lavenders don't sell like they did 10 years ago move on and make sunkissed lavenders. Lavenders didn't keep their high price forever and neither should other snakes. If your snakes sold for X last year but no one wants them for X this year....they probably aren't worth X and you should drop the price to Y if you are looking to sell. If you are looking to still get price X, go ahead...keep pricing them at X and either A) someone may buy them or B) your competition or buyers from last year will eventually produce them and they'll drop the price and you'll still be stuck with them.

 

[Vinman]

PS. I've got this brand new Dorbunkle gene that is amazing, simply amazing. It's like nothing you've ever seen before. I hatched out 6 of them. Sorry, can't sell you any. They're worth $2000 apiece, but I just can't sell you any. Why? Well, duh, you'll breed them and then sell them for less than me. So I can't sell you any. I'm rich and wealthy now!!! Oh, wait a minute . . .

D80

I cant think for you drizz you have to mank common sence choices for your self . you live in a beautiful state. Know for ist natural resorces and wildlife. I live in the big city, the money capital of the world, NYC in New York state. You have to learn business sence. I cant help you help yourself, I cant make those dissicons for you you are just going to have to use you common sence and make the right choices. I laid out a game plan I been useing for years . Now I know you are far from stupid. So why make stupid comments . Your post are saying that you cant make a good buuiness chioices. This is what you are telling everyone . You been in the game this long and you are telling us that you dont know any breeders that will undercut other breeders just to make a sale even if it spoiles the project in the long run. This is what I'm getting by you post . Now use common sence. I dont know why you are fixated on some list that no one has mention but you. What I stated is very easy to understand.

I dont care why Carol did what she did it is a STUPID business dicssion. The fact she cut off her nose to spite her face . and what about all the customers that rich sold his animals to. Did thay deserve to be sold out because she had a little minor beef with rich . Did they do anything to deserve having their investment runned. This is what I mean you got to make good business choices. I wont sell nothing high dollor to this person. So if she get mad at you she will under sell a high dollar project you are working on to spite you and hurt a whole lot of people that has nothing to do with the beff. PLAIN ENGLISH STUPID BUSINESS MOVE. I'm sure if you s[pent the money with RZ for cinders you would not be happy with carols decision.


Sorry bitsy, you are wrong I been doing this for many years not just with fish , but snakes and lizards too you got to know how to talk to you customers and leard how to educate them. learn how to teach them to do the right thing.

 

[Vinman]

Jeff that is the animal business as they become more animals on the market the prices drop. Now what do you do the inpead it. You want to get the most out of a project .

#1 dont over produce more than the market can take
#2 dont sell to under cutters
#3 educate your costomers teach them how to get the most out of their animals.
#4 use common sence

Or you can sit back and do nothing and wine about the prices falling and be a cut throat and deal with the end result

 

[Drizzt80]

50 words or LESS Vin, you answer your own questions for me:

#1 dont over produce more than the market can take

What is the magic number? What can the market take for each morph? And how does that translate to each individual breeder? How many Lavender Bloodreds will you allow me to produce this year?

#2 dont sell to under cutters

This is the list I'm talking about. Who are the undercutters?

#3 educate your costomers teach them how to get the most out of their animals.

How do you get the most out of your snake Vinman?

#4 use common sence

Do tell?

Thanks, looking forward to it!
D80

 

[bitsy]

you got to know how to talk to you customers and leard how to educate them. learn how to teach them to do the right thing.

But in this case, what you're teaching them is not "the right thing", it's "to not set up in competition with you".

And as one of the European breeders you're apparently undercutting - I'd like to lodge a formal protest with whatever trading standards authority is managing your Rules! If you want them - start living by them.

How exactly are you "educating" your European customers? I take it you're selling wholesale and not to individuals? Do you make sure that you only wholesale to dealers who make sure they "educate" their customers correctly, according to the Rules, so your European colleagues aren't undercut? Or do you just not give a heck about us foreigners, as long as you can shift the snakes and make the sort of money you seem to think you deserve? Do your Rules only apply to you when you trade in the US? Seems a bit of a selective way to apply a point of such significant principle.

 

[starsevol]

I think business sense overall are things that are not situation-specific.

Things like
1) Paying off your entire credit card balance every single month so that you never pay interest.
2) Paying extra on a car loan or a mortgage so that more comes off the principle. When more comes off the principle early the interest paid on the total loan is substantially less. (being sure to start with the loan that has the highest interest rate)
3) Automatically taking 20% off the gross amount of each paycheck and investing it into a retirement account.

Things like that display much more business or common sense than refusing to sell to someone because they had a tiff with someone else and sold their property for less than you think they should.....

Markets run in waves...the stock market...the reptile market...it's all the same really...

 

[Vinman]

50 words or LESS Vin, you answer your own questions for me:
What is the magic number? What can the market take for each morph? And how does that translate to each individual breeder? How many Lavender Bloodreds will you allow me to produce this year?

This is the list I'm talking about. Who are the undercutters?

How do you get the most out of your snake Vinman?

Do tell?

Thanks, looking forward to it!
D80

I cant think for you Drizz you are just going to have to use common sence . You are going to have to know who you are competing agenist and know who not to sell to.. I just told you the answer but you refuss to see the answer. I will be producing a limitted of HLB this year. I'm only breeding HLB to other multi hets females. Hopfuly selling most of my snakes to europe. I will be giving them the best of the best I produce. Only some friends will get the cherry pick animals. Again there may be people I like that may not get the cherry picks. these people will be the people that market their animals under market price. I'm not going to sell top projects to a undercutter. I rathe feed off a expencive animal than sell it to a undercutter

 

[Vinman]

But in this case, what you're teaching them is not "the right thing", it's "to not set up in competition with you".

And as one of the European breeders you're apparently undercutting - I'd like to lodge a formal protest with whatever trading standards authority is managing your Rules! If you want them - start living by them.

How exactly are you "educating" your European customers? I take it you're selling wholesale and not to individuals? Do you make sure that you only wholesale to dealers who make sure they "educate" their customers correctly, according to the Rules, so your European colleagues aren't undercut? Or do you just not give a heck about us foreigners, as long as you can shift the snakes and make the sort of money you seem to think you deserve? Do your Rules only apply to you when you trade in the US? Seems a bit of a selective way to apply a point of such significant principle.

Again you are wrong. Everyone that buys off me that breeds, is a person in 2 years that will competing aganist me. I just educate them in making thre right business decisions. Not to get over their heads. take it one step at a time.

I sell to cornmorphs in the UK he resales a lot of animal I sell him . I also sell to individuals. They get the same prices as I would sell to American customers. They have to pay shipping to Rob Roy at Glades Herp. They have to pay Rob to bring to hamm show. Who said I'm under cutting you. To tell you the truth I realy don care How you deal with it in your country. You live there not me it is up to and the breeders in your country to do the right thing. I'm not putting the world on my shoulders. The whole problem is too many people that have no business sence are in business. If you like it as a hiobby keep it like that, stay away from high end projects. Wate till prices come down to your levle. If you are doing this to make money play by the rules of business!!!

 

[starsevol]

If you are doing this to make money play by the rules of business!!!

But whose rules ARE "the rules of business"?
Yours?


My simple common-sense "business plan" is something anyone can do for themselves. And it's something you actually have control over.

It would earn you far more success than the "plan" you are espousing....

 

[Drizzt80]

I cant think for you Drizz you are just going to have to use common sence .

EEHHHHHHH! Wrong answer. You can't even answer to your own written expectations. Bummer. I thought we were going to get somewhere. Oh well, same old - same old. :shrugs:

Good luck.
D80

 

[Vinman]

I think business sense overall are things that are not situation-specific.

Things like
1) Paying off your entire credit card balance every single month so that you never pay interest.
2) Paying extra on a car loan or a mortgage so that more comes off the principle. When more comes off the principle early the interest paid on the total loan is substantially less. (being sure to start with the loan that has the highest interest rate)
3) Automatically taking 20% off the gross amount of each paycheck and investing it into a retirement account.

Things like that display much more business or common sense than refusing to sell to someone because they had a tiff with someone else and sold their property for less than you think they should.....

Markets run in waves...the stock market...the reptile market...it's all the same really...

If everybody did what they wanted in the stock market then this country would crash. Big business knows they can only go so low in prices without hurting themselfs as well as there competitors. Look at OPEC. they told us not to complain about the high prices and said it was our economy. Now that that the gas prices are down they are cutting back production to make higher prices. Look at opec they uniffied instead of competing aginest themselves. The truth is that most people dont know how to conduct business and have no business selling animals.Most breeders are greedy and only care about themselves and not the long run of a project. Hit and run is their motto. Get the animals produce them in high numbers and sell out the babies under market value then dump the project and move to the next. this hobby has too many people like this . Feed them and you screw yourself.
. I grew up in NY on wellfair. How did I get here with out some good business sence. I started with nothing. I know many breeders I would not sell cherry pic animals that do the white plains show, Why? because I watch the way they do business. It is not woth it for me to sell to these people that will sell at wholsale prices or under wholesale prices to the public. They can sell to another vendor or a wholesaler and not hurt everybody else.