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Are we killing the future market?

Drizzt80 said:
EEHHHHHHH! Wrong answer. You can't even answer to your own written expectations. Bummer. I thought we were going to get somewhere. Oh well, same old - same old. :shrugs:

Good luck.
D80
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No drizz you have been told the answer you just can see it. use commonsence and whatch who you sell to DONT supply a under cutter. Know what other breeders are producing. It might be a bad idea and do what I do when i get something that is high dollor. talk to the a set a price. I have done this with RZ . Ther was a time he did not want to sell multi het breeders to anyone. I told him sell to me I wont under cut you. I would call him up and say what is the price you are going to get for this morph this year because I dont want to under sell you. I have no problem getting anything I want off Rich. He know I will not undercut him for the first few years that the project in new. When I poped out the pied sided in 07 I called up Don and asked him if he thought I had the same gene. I also asked him wow mucgh they will go for and told him I will work with him to keep the prices high and not under cut him.
 
Vin, you're not getting my point.
There are things you can do to better your situation, and there are things you can do to keep the status quo, or make things worse. (Right now, I think you are stepping in something smelly that may come back to bite you!)

You can't control gas prices, or the stock market, and regardless of how you feel about Carol, I have absolutely no doubt that she can get her hands on anything her heart desires.... But there are things you CAN control.

Owing $12,000.00 on a credit card with a 17% interest rate will kill you faster than anything anyone does with their cornsnakes!
 
Vinman : I will work with him to keep the prices high and not under cut him.
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So in this scenario, why would I want to buy from you instead when the prices are the same and Rich Z or Don S has the bigger name. IMO, it only starts to get ridiculous when the undercutting is by a huge substantial amount. I would expect someone less known to charge less than Rich. Might not mean I would buy from them, but I would logically expect it.
Heck at shows many breeders go look at what other breeders are charging before putting price tags on their delis. So they can be a little less expensive but still make money. You never see a huddle at the beginning of a show and people saying "let's all charge $XX for morph YY"
The OPEC analogy, great theory but you will never get everybody to agree to one price, even in this discussion thread there is plenty of variation on whether everyone should all produce less and/or charge more. And many people want to do the same combination of genes so who gets to decide which ones are "authorized" to produce them and set the market price? I can only do what I feel is right for me and that is the only person whose actions I have any control over. Last time I checked all the big breeders are not exactly holding hands and singing Kumbayah either. Sure some may cooperate with others who are their friends but I don't think all the big names are like this great big happy family who work together always...
 
You can control the snake market to some degree. You have to get breeders to work with eachother instead of trying to undercut eachother . We need to pull together as a team and stop under cutting eachother!!!:bang::bang::bang:

If I have a new gene I can control the market for years. You can also not market the new gene for about 5 years . Cross into every morph out there. Only sell the first morph when you already are producing multi morphs . Over flood the market in two years screw everyone that invested in it and by the time they are producing that morph you are producing multi morphs and rake in the cash. . This is what most breeders that have a new gene are doing. You can never catch up with them and will always chaseing the dragon.
 
ghosthousecorns said:
So in this scenario, why would I want to buy from you instead when the prices are the same and Rich Z or Don S has the bigger name. IMO, it only starts to get ridiculous when the undercutting is by a huge substantial amount. I would expect someone less known to charge less than Rich. Might not mean I would buy from them, but I would logically expect it.
Heck at shows many breeders go look at what other breeders are charging before putting price tags on their delis. So they can be a little less expensive but still make money. You never see a huddle at the beginning of a show and people saying "let's all charge $XX for morph YY"
The OPEC analogy, great theory but you will never get everybody to agree to one price, even in this discussion thread there is plenty of variation on whether everyone should all produce less and/or charge more. And many people want to do the same combination of genes so who gets to decide which ones are "authorized" to produce them and set the market price? I can only do what I feel is right for me and that is the only person whose actions I have any control over. Last time I checked all the big breeders are not exactly holding hands and singing Kumbayah either. Sure some may cooperate with others who are their friends but I don't think all the big names are like this great big happy family who work together always...
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Maybe you should get into Avon and not do reptiles. The answer is to buy from Don and me . My line is unrealted to Dons. Mine is from a orginal bell stock crossed to my line of pure okeetee. The animals were bred back and a pied poped out. Why should a no name breeder sell at cheaper prices,. this just makes not sence when you got a money making animal. So they under cut you and you under cut them and back and forth you go. The result you are back to having a cheap animal way ahead of its time. This is just what I'm talking about no business sence.
 
starsevol said:
I think it's the "if I have a new gene" part that gets a little tricky......
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So let say you buy a WC pr of corns and breed the young to eachother and a few neon purple babies poped would you sell to me if you know that when I produce them I would under cut you ??? would you ???

We we have to do something before the bottom falls out the high end breeders got to work together. Vendors have to ban together at a show and agree what price range thay are going sell their animals at. I have done this with other vendors that had the same animals. We agreeded to lower the price together instead of competing againest eachother. I did this with anotrher breeder of nice colored dragons I wont lower my prices and yopu do the same untill we talk to eachother.
 
Vinman said:
Maybe you should get into Avon and not do reptiles.
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Who are YOU to tell me what I should do?
I have no interest in pied sideds so in this case I would not purchase from either, it was more a rhetorical question. I do not think I deserved such a nasty response.

FWIW I like to purchase my snakes from breeders who
A) have a good quality animal I want
B) at a price I can afford
c) have a reputation for fairness and honesty.
There's been people who by their actions or attitude made my do not buy list, they could have the newest nicest Dorfbunkles out there but they would not get a cent of my money.
 
Vinman said:
I dont care why Carol did what she did it is a STUPID business dicssion. The fact she cut off her nose to spite her face . and what about all the customers that rich sold his animals to. Did thay deserve to be sold out because she had a little minor beef with rich .

I'm sure if you s[pent the money with RZ for cinders you would not be happy with carols decision.
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What in the heck are you even talking about? What decision did I make and how did I undercut? Rich dropped the prices on Cinders before I did. Do you even back your slander up with any knowledge or facts at all? All I hear is "what Carol did, and how Carol undercut Rich" without any explaination on how I did this.

I don't remember if it was 2005 or 2006, however at one point Rich and I had Cinders priced at about $1,000 each. Rich sold out before I did. (Possibly by giving cheaper deals to large overseas buyers but who knows??) I still had a few remaining when Rich posted on his price list for the coming season that Cinders would be $500. So how in the world could I still sell some for $1,000? I lowered my prices to around $600 and I believe Rich later raised his price to that as well. Since Rich has had multiple sales, the 25% off out of egg sale in 06 and 07, the buy $1000 get 50% off sale.... all of which I've had to compete with. What's the difference between selling snakes at 50% a $1,200 pair or selling them at $600 a pair? If that's the current market price, what am I sapposed to sell lone males or live feeders for?
Since Rich is the originating breeder and is much more well known, I don't believe I can ask for more. I have NO beef with Rich Z, I have no idea if he has any issue with me, he's certainly never brought it to my attention if he does. There is no fued that I know of. I may drop my prices to keep up with Rich's drop in prices but how is that ME under cutting him?
 
One more clarification for people who like to make stuff up between the lines...

I stated that I only drop prices after Rich does, but do not mean to imply in anyway that he is undercutting either. I think we are both just trying to adjust to the market. Since he's the bigger breeder, if he adjusts low, I have to also. It's just how it works, it's not a fued or undercutting.

I was extremely disappointed when I had $1,000 animals to sell when he advertised that he'd be selling them for $500 MONTHS before he would even have any available. I didn't take this personally, I just assumed that Rich had planned to make A LOT of them that year. However, that caused me to drop prices so dramatically it is an extreme slap in the face to have a third party tell me I undercut Rich.

I've lost what little respect I had for you Vin. your statements about me are not just wrong, they are the oppisite of the truth.
 
I seen the post with my own eyes that impression I will never forget. That is red light for me. Sorry if it bothers you . You said what you said . So Rich played your game you both lose out No one wins. What you said is total wrong and set in motion the down fall in price for both of you before anyone had babies for sale. You do know people were on the sidlines wating for a price war. I think that stoped more people from buying animals of that project in the start. I know I was scared where the price would end.
 
ghosthousecorns said:
Who are YOU to tell me what I should do?
I have no interest in pied sideds so in this case I would not purchase from either, it was more a rhetorical question. I do not think I deserved such a nasty response.

FWIW I like to purchase my snakes from breeders who
A) have a good quality animal I want
B) at a price I can afford
c) have a reputation for fairness and honesty.
There's been people who by their actions or attitude made my do not buy list, they could have the newest nicest Dorfbunkles out there but they would not get a cent of my money.
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So I use the same rhetorical snake as you do and you cant see the answer. I dont think it matters if we are talking about a pied sided or a golden corn or any new gene. the answer is the same. If a snake is worth 2000 buck it is worth that nomatter who is selling the babies it is a 2000 dollar snake. You mind set is the unkown breeder should sell it cheaper. Sorry no good for the project. The big breeder is not going to be assed out of the deal he will just lower his price and there goes the project.
 
OK, which post? Sorry, but you need more than "A post I've seen with my own eyes and it made me feel sad". There is no "price war" going on. Just simple supply and demand. Give your slander just a bit more back up than what you've imagined in your head off of one post you read but don't care to share.
 
carol said:
OK, which post? Sorry, but you need more than "A post I've seen with my own eyes and it made me feel sad". There is no "price war" going on. Just simple supply and demand. Give your slander just a bit more back up than what you've imagined in your head off of one post you read but don't care to share.
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I asked for a link to this alleged post a while ago, and have yet to see one.
 
Carol like I said before you are a good breeder I would have no problem sending you a customer. I would know thay would be treated right. My only beef with you is the post where Rich was saying how much would be selling cinder hatchlings for and you said that you were going to undersell him. I forgot the prices both of you quoted. I cant speck for Rich But I would have done the same as Rich. It take a lot of balls to do that on his forum Take it from Mr. tastless,and uncouth himself, that was Low class move. Belive me you hurt both of you . Like I said it hurt the project. Other than that I have nothing bad to say.
 
Vinman said:
So I use the same rhetorical snake as you do and you cant see the answer. I dont think it matters if we are talking about a pied sided or a golden corn or any new gene. the answer is the same. If a snake is worth 2000 buck it is worth that nomatter who is selling the babies it is a 2000 dollar snake. You mind set is the unkown breeder should sell it cheaper. Sorry no good for the project. The big breeder is not going to be assed out of the deal he will just lower his price and there goes the project.
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Is the snake still worth 2000 if nobody is willing to pay that much? Or if you are afraid to sell at all? Let's see I have this whole rack full of Dorfbunkles, they are worth 3 grand each! But I am afraid to sell to Joe Schmoes, he might sell them for less! So I will keep them all and they will be MINE all MINE! How is that making me money LOL.
What you don't seem to understand is that you can't stop prices from falling. Go read Jeff Mohrs post about the do-hickys again... he said it better than I can.
What are you going to do, only sell to your buddies and also tell them who they are allowed to sell to? Send everything to Europe? How exactly are you going to stop the Dorfbunkle price from dropping?
I have said before in this thread I personally plan to cut back on what I am producing, so I do understand where you are coming from in theory.. It's just that I do not believe it can be put into practice...
 
Vinman said:
Carol like I said before you are a good breeder I would have no problem sending you a customer. I would know thay would be treated right. My only beef with you is the post where Rich was saying how much would be selling cinder hatchlings for and you said that you were going to undersell him. I forgot the prices both of you quoted. I cant speck for Rich But I would have done the same as Rich. It take a lot of balls to do that on his forum Take it from Mr. tastless,and uncouth himself, that was Low class move. Belive me you hurt both of you . Like I said it hurt the project. Other than that I have nothing bad to say.
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Hey Vin... I saw this post where you said you were selling dead snakes to blind kids.... that's so low class of you. You're hurting the reptile industry by doing this.

Is that true? Should I provide you a link since I called you out on this? Of course it's not true. Back up what you're saying with a link to the post where Carol undercut Rich.
 
Go head and prove this. Many pepole seen the link I'm talking about. I'm so sorry I cant remember every link on this board sham on me . How stupid I must be to not remember every thing everone said on every thread. You want to know what link it was then you have to do the same as I would search the whole form for cinder threads and read them all and get back to us with the link. I will give you one better It should be Carol that would know what link it was . It was her comment. I had a talk with RZ on the subject. Asking him how come she dont get banned for that, it was total disrespect to the owner of the site. He was not happy but Rich took a higher road. I was stund to say the least.
 
I have been around a long time and never "seen" it... If you want to make a serious allegation against a well respected breeder it would behoove you to at least be able to back it up. You brought it up, so it's on you to prove it... you do the search and find it..
otherwise I call BS!
 
ghosthousecorns said:
Is the snake still worth 2000 if nobody is willing to pay that much? Or if you are afraid to sell at all? Let's see I have this whole rack full of Dorfbunkles, they are worth 3 grand each! But I am afraid to sell to Joe Schmoes, he might sell them for less! So I will keep them all and they will be MINE all MINE! How is that making me money LOL.
What you don't seem to understand is that you can't stop prices from falling. Go read Jeff Mohrs post about the do-hickys again... he said it better than I can.
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That is not what you said you said you expect a unknown breederd to sell the same ainaml for less that Rich or Don. Read your own post.

You set a price if it dont sell in 2 years you drop it a little. Now if as with the case of pied it was only 2 breeders that had the morphs 2 years ago. They got the price. Now a new morphs yes you hord them for the first few years and breed them to every morph out there. Only sell the single morph when you have multi morphs being produced. Now you are 2 stepps ahead of everyone else.

What are you going to do said:
Friends, What does that have anything to do with that . One of my best friends Antione Burke begged me to sell him my pick okeetees for years . I would not . He would be so pissed off. I would show him the top pick males but would not sell him any of them. some of them were for sale but not to people in my selling range. I would sell them to local pet stores as normals and as okeetees on the midwest to the westcoast. the reason I knew if I sold any of the pics in east coast I would be competing against my own stock. It happend once with my okeetee line and I learned qucik. I knew it would be years for anybody with my okeete stock to produce the animals I had for breeders


Send everything to Europe? How exactly are you going to stop the Dorfbunkle price from dropping? I have said before in this thread I personally plan to cut back on what I am producing said:
Just remember in 1775 some people living in a new land said they wanted independance. I sure so many people said it is impossible. England is the most powerful nation in the world. Well they got together wrote a document in 1776 claming that independence. Fought the super power at that time and won against all odds. Here I live in the most powful nation the world has ever seen. All because people got together and worked with eachother. You cant controll everyone but there is strenth in numbers. I wrote a good game plan studdy it and it will make more sence the more you read itor you can sit back and do nothing but complain
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