Culling 'side product' hatchlings

[tyflier]

Sean--

First off...absolutely you can still call me Chris. I have thus far enjoyed the discourse, and even the slight "jabs" we have taken at each other have all seemed to be "in good fun", which has most certainly been my intention...exchange ideas and have a little fun. That is, afterall, what the internet is for...

With that said...I have to admit that I agree with 99.9% of your last post. Semantics and definitions aside, everything except the "child issue" I think I can agree with. And really...the child issue was a bad example, even my attempt to make it right, failed. It doesn't fit because there is nothing cut-and-dry about raising children to an even larger degree than with breeding snakes.

Everything that you wrote regarding the mouse and the snakes I would agree with...I simply would not want to force MY ideals on anyone else, nor would I expect them to conform to my opinions.

Lastly, I don't think the discussion of "ethics" was even remotely off-topic, because quite quickly the conversation turned away from the original topic of the poll(your reasons for culling) to the "righ and wrong" of culling healthy offspring as a breeder, and since breeding snakes IS a profession, there is a difference between the ethics of it, and the personal morals of it. THAT is why I "fought" so hard to make the difference clear. From a professional standpoint, one's morals may or may not be equivalent to the "ethical standard". But the distinction and difference needed to be established in this conversation, IMO...

One more thing...I don't want you to go away, one bit. My "summarizations" have never been an attempt to "finish the topic", merely to summarize MY OPINION and what this topic has meant to me. Without someone like yourself participating, I don;t believe it would have been even have as thought provoking, insightful(on all ends), and fun. From me to you--:cheers:

Tula--

Believe it or not...I ALSO agree with you and your opinion of the situation. I believe that I stated that earlier. The only "problem"(which isn't really a problem at all) that I have with your post is in the passion against the other opinions.

While we agree with each other in the responsibility required of a breeder, it STILL doesn't give any one of us the right to judge any other for the decisions they make in similar situations, so long as the animals never suffer. And really...that has been my main contention all along.

Blutengel--
I admit...the child-rearing example was a bad example. It wasn;t originally mine, but I did attempt(and fail) to make it fit when it was truly not a befitting example.

 

[Tula_Montage]

Tula--

Believe it or not...I ALSO agree with you and your opinion of the situation. I believe that I stated that earlier. The only "problem"(which isn't really a problem at all) that I have with your post is in the passion against the other opinions.

Just to clear things up, I in no way want to force my opinions on others... I maybe just express them rather forwardly or as you said, passionatley.

I would never tell someone to NOT express their opinion, be it the same or directly opposite of mine. Thats the fun of it all.

 

[tyflier]

Just to clear things up, I in no way want to force my opinions on others... I maybe just express them rather forwardly or as you said, passionatley.

I would never tell someone to NOT express their opinion, be it the same or directly opposite of mine. Thats the fun of it all.

I know this. I think that at thjis point we "know" each other well enough to understand that, which is specifically why I put quotation marks around the word "problem", and stated that it wasn't really a problem.

 

[Eremita]

Sean--

First off...absolutely you can still call me Chris. I have thus far enjoyed the discourse, and even the slight "jabs" we have taken at each other have all seemed to be "in good fun", which has most certainly been my intention...exchange ideas and have a little fun. That is, afterall, what the internet is for...

With that said...I have to admit that I agree with 99.9% of your last post. Semantics and definitions aside, everything except the "child issue" I think I can agree with. And really...the child issue was a bad example, even my attempt to make it right, failed. It doesn't fit because there is nothing cut-and-dry about raising children to an even larger degree than with breeding snakes.

Everything that you wrote regarding the mouse and the snakes I would agree with...I simply would not want to force MY ideals on anyone else, nor would I expect them to conform to my opinions.

Lastly, I don't think the discussion of "ethics" was even remotely off-topic, because quite quickly the conversation turned away from the original topic of the poll(your reasons for culling) to the "righ and wrong" of culling healthy offspring as a breeder, and since breeding snakes IS a profession, there is a difference between the ethics of it, and the personal morals of it. THAT is why I "fought" so hard to make the difference clear. From a professional standpoint, one's morals may or may not be equivalent to the "ethical standard". But the distinction and difference needed to be established in this conversation, IMO...

One more thing...I don't want you to go away, one bit. My "summarizations" have never been an attempt to "finish the topic", merely to summarize MY OPINION and what this topic has meant to me. Without someone like yourself participating, I don;t believe it would have been even have as thought provoking, insightful(on all ends), and fun. From me to you--:cheers:
(...)

Rock 'n roll. I figured as much, but I just have to goad you a bit anyway. I'm glad you came around from the "dead horse" theory of earlier and returned to the meat of the discussion. And I appreciate your point about ethics.

I guess I'm happy now.

:cheers:
-Sean

 

[tyflier]

Rock 'n roll. I figured as much, but I just have to goad you a bit anyway. I'm glad you came around from the "dead horse" theory of earlier and returned to the meat of the discussion. And I appreciate your point about ethics.

I guess I'm happy now.

:cheers:
-Sean

[emphasis added]That makes 2 of us...:cheers:

 

[SnakeAround]

YEAH all drink beer now! Thanks all for a very nice week of interesting discussions!

 

[tyflier]

YEAH all drink beer now! Thanks all for a very nice week of interesting discussions!

Actually, Thank YOU, for starting such an intriguing and topical debate. :cheers:

 

[Tula_Montage]

Whos gonnae start the next one? I have nothing I can think of so I nominate either Chris or Sean LOL

 

[SnakeAround]

"Is breeding animals as a profession ethical, and as a hobby?" Or 'Is breeding animals morally right?' :sidestep: :grin01:

Or; "Is it ok to 'walk' your snake like a dog on a leech?" (when temps allow it)

 

[SnakeAround]

How did my kid kill the mouse? Why did they decide that the mouse was sick and did not deserve to live? Who made them the judge of sickness, life worth living etc.....

Have you ever lived in a house with mice? Have you set traps that kill, put out poison? Why should that mouse not have the right to live? Is it ok to kill a perfectly healthy mouse because you don't think they should be living in your house? Are you going to judge all your friends as having poor ethics/morals etc because they did not want a mouse runnign loose in their house?

Did not see this post yet.... have to answer it...

I think I have the right to get rid of animals that soil my food or damage my stuff... I would try to do this as human as possible though. Our intelligence and emotions gave us the capability to be able to 'play God' and decide on life and death in a way no other animal can, hence we are obliged to do so. Any other predator survives by killing without lookig at intentions and reasons, they kill to feed or to protect their baby's or to be able to pass on the best genes for sake of evolution and their race. Breeding snakes for their colors and culling the ones you don't need or are not able to take care of is completely different from that. The fact we are able to do this just because we like it, gives us the moral obligation to apply our intelligence and emotions when deciding on life and death.

 

[kathylove]

..."The reason is what makes or permits you do something distasteful, something opposed to your natural inclination. So, if you kill a hatchling because it is not red enough or whatever, then that is your reason and that for you is more important than your general disinclination to kill - that it is not red enough..." (Eremita)

I think THAT is actually what the whole discussion boils down to.

NONE of us want to kill a snake for "no" reason (I hope!) But we all will, if we have a "reason". The debate is what constitutes a "reason".

I personally will go to some lengths to avoid killing one, even giving some away if they have minor defects, or other traits I don't want to see passed on. I can't say that I totally believe that the risk of those "polluting" future generations is more or less ethical than destroying their genes. It is just what I am personally comfortable with. I try to give them to pet homes not interested in breeding, but that is no guarantee.

The above is one level of "reasons" to euthanize. From there, you can go up the ladder of reasons, from providing food to showing the wrong colors, and everything in between. Each person is going to make their own decision about EXACTLY where on that list of reasons they are comfortable in stopping at.

For example, as a meat eater myself, I can't see any logical reason that pythons shouldn't be bred for food for an Asian restaurant (assuming they are humanely raised and killed). But I have ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in doing so myself. I just wouldn't enjoy it or be comfortable in that business. But I would not tell somebody else not to do that.

So if you take a list of reasons, starting with terminal birth defects, to minor defects, to using for food, to culling because of aesthetic or other "unimportant reasons", you are going to get lots of consensus for the terminal defects, fair consensus for minor defects, less agreement for food, and even less as you go up the list of "less necessary" culling (killing).

That being the case, do we decide to draw a line at some point, saying most of us believe this line in the sand is ethical, and that line isn't? I would never personally cull an animal because of its looks or even non feeding - if I could find a home for it. But I just don't feel I can say 100% that my way is more ethical than somebody who is willing to MAKE SURE that those hatchling will not pass on unwanted genes.

I feel we are all using various mixtures of emotions, logic, and just "what feels comfortable" to each draw our own line. But I don't see how that line can be drawn in cement instead of sand - just too fuzzy.

 

[SnakeAround]

..."The reason is what makes or permits you do something distasteful, something opposed to your natural inclination. So, if you kill a hatchling because it is not red enough or whatever, then that is your reason and that for you is more important than your general disinclination to kill - that it is not red enough..." (Eremita)

I think THAT is actually what the whole discussion boils down to.

NONE of us want to kill a snake for "no" reason (I hope!) But we all will, if we have a "reason". The debate is what constitutes a "reason".

I personally will go to some lengths to avoid killing one, even giving some away if they have minor defects, or other traits I don't want to see passed on. I can't say that I totally believe that the risk of those "polluting" future generations is more or less ethical than destroying their genes. It is just what I am personally comfortable with. I try to give them to pet homes not interested in breeding, but that is no guarantee.

The above is one level of "reasons" to euthanize. From there, you can go up the ladder of reasons, from providing food to showing the wrong colors, and everything in between. Each person is going to make their own decision about EXACTLY where on that list of reasons they are comfortable in stopping at.

For example, as a meat eater myself, I can't see any logical reason that pythons shouldn't be bred for food for an Asian restaurant (assuming they are humanely raised and killed). But I have ABSOLUTELY NO INTEREST in doing so myself. I just wouldn't enjoy it or be comfortable in that business. But I would not tell somebody else not to do that.

So if you take a list of reasons, starting with terminal birth defects, to minor defects, to using for food, to culling because of aesthetic or other "unimportant reasons", you are going to get lots of consensus for the terminal defects, fair consensus for minor defects, less agreement for food, and even less as you go up the list of "less necessary" culling (killing).

That being the case, do we decide to draw a line at some point, saying most of us believe this line in the sand is ethical, and that line isn't? I would never personally cull an animal because of its looks or even non feeding - if I could find a home for it. But I just don't feel I can say 100% that my way is more ethical than somebody who is willing to MAKE SURE that those hatchling will not pass on unwanted genes.

I feel we are all using various mixtures of emotions, logic, and just "what feels comfortable" to each draw our own line. But I don't see how that line can be drawn in cement instead of sand - just too fuzzy.

Very well said! I must admit that my feelings with regards to the line I have drawn personally are so strong and my logic seems so l'ogic' that I truly do not understand how anyone else can feel different, but that might be a personal flaw or the 'passion' of a novice

 

[Roy Munson]

Enough theory and hypothetical situations. Here's what I'm going to do:

I'm not one of those people who enjoy the challenge of getting non-feeders going, so I'm going to continue culling low-end non-feeders. I will try harder if the non-feeders are medium-value snakes, and even harder if they are high-end hatchlings. I will continue culling kinked animals except for cases where I can find a home for an animal with a minor kink or two that in no way impedes biological function. I will cull healthy, low-end hatchlings if I can't find purchasers. I find this distasteful, but I expect this to be a rarity as I will not be producing anything low-end after this season, and I do have a couple of pet stores that will take healthy hatchlings (and they prefer low-end). The culls will all be fed to my kingsnakes after humane euthanasia.

I'd rather not sell/gift culls here or on other herp sites because I'd rather that enthusiasts fill their available rack/viv space by supporting the professional and hobbyist breeders on these sites. But I'm still on the fence on this one. I'll have to revisit the idea later in the season.

 

[E.Crassus]

Enough theory and hypothetical situations. Here's what I'm going to do:

I'm not one of those people who enjoy the challenge of getting non-feeders going, so I'm going to continue culling low-end non-feeders. I will try harder if the non-feeders are medium-value snakes, and even harder if they are high-end hatchlings. I will continue culling kinked animals except for cases where I can find a home for an animal with a minor kink or two that in no way impedes biological function. I will cull healthy, low-end hatchlings if I can't find purchasers. I find this distasteful, but I expect this to be a rarity as I will not be producing anything low-end after this season, and I do have a couple of pet stores that will take healthy hatchlings (and they prefer low-end). The culls will all be fed to my kingsnakes after humane euthanasia.

I'd rather not sell/gift culls here or on other herp sites because I'd rather that enthusiasts fill their available rack/viv space by supporting the professional and hobbyist breeders on these sites. But I'm still on the fence on this one. I'll have to revisit the idea later in the season.

Made little sense as I was reading it quickly but go for it, i think :shrugs:

 

[Roy Munson]

Made little sense as I was reading it quickly but go for it, i think :shrugs:

Maybe you should read it slower, and if something still doesn't make sense, I could explain it to you.

 

[carol]

I understand it perfectly and have the exact same plan.

 

[jaxom1957]

Enough theory and hypothetical situations. Here's what I'm going to do:

I understand it perfectly and have the exact same plan.

How much does the relative availability of pet homes or hobbyists willing to take your culls affect your decisions, or does it affect them at all?

 

[Roy Munson]

How much does the relative availability of pet homes or hobbyists willing to take your culls affect your decisions, or does it affect them at all?

I guess placement options would affect my decisions, but it isn't the biggest factor for me. There are many other considerations, and the decision isn't always simple. For example, if I have 10 non-feeding anerys, and one person wants them all, I'd probably gift them and only charge for shipping and handling. But I wouldn't consider shipping a single non-feeding anery to one person if no other purchases were involved. Shipping is a pain, and it's not worth my time to add to FedEx's bottom line while doing nothing for my own.

I would really squirm at the idea of SELLING snakes that I consider culls, but I also don't want to run a corn charity or adoption agency. What do you do with a lavender-blood het stripe with a couple of minor kinks-- give her away? How about a non-feeding golddust-stripe? How is Carol going to feel about me giving away lav-bloods while she is trying to sell them?

The only thing I can think of that somewhat squares with the obligations I feel toward my fellow hobbyist breeders (and the pros) is if I offer these kinds of culls as freebies to customers who are already making purchases. But even then, decisions would have to be made, and the lines are still unclear to me. If you're already placing a $1,000 order, I might consider throwing in a non-feeding lav-blood if you wanted one. But if you're ordering a single 0.1 lav blood, I'm not going to give you a male non-feeding lav-blood to complete your pair. But I might offer you a free non-feeding charcoal or two. I'm really just thinking out loud here; I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet. :shrugs:

I think the obligations we have toward our fellow breeders is a part of this discussion that wasn't explored enough. Maybe the idea of euthanizing a viable hatchling in the name of business ethics doesn't sit well with some people, but it's a real factor for me. But realistically, is alienating your competitors, many of whom you yourself purchase from or sell to, a good idea?

 

[SnakeAround]

I guess placement options would affect my decisions, but it isn't the biggest factor for me. There are many other considerations, and the decision isn't always simple. For example, if I have 10 non-feeding anerys, and one person wants them all, I'd probably gift them and only charge for shipping and handling. But I wouldn't consider shipping a single non-feeding anery to one person if no other purchases were involved. Shipping is a pain, and it's not worth my time to add to FedEx's bottom line while doing nothing for my own.

I would really squirm at the idea of SELLING snakes that I consider culls, but I also don't want to run a corn charity or adoption agency. What do you do with a lavender-blood het stripe with a couple of minor kinks-- give her away? How about a non-feeding golddust-stripe? How is Carol going to feel about me giving away lav-bloods while she is trying to sell them?

The only thing I can think of that somewhat squares with the obligations I feel toward my fellow hobbyist breeders (and the pros) is if I offer these kinds of culls as freebies to customers who are already making purchases. But even then, decisions would have to be made, and the lines are still unclear to me. If you're already placing a $1,000 order, I might consider throwing in a non-feeding lav-blood if you wanted one. But if you're ordering a single 0.1 lav blood, I'm not going to give you a male non-feeding lav-blood to complete your pair. But I might offer you a free non-feeding charcoal or two. I'm really just thinking out loud here; I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet. :shrugs:

I think the obligations we have toward our fellow breeders is a part of this discussion that wasn't explored enough. Maybe the idea of euthanizing a viable hatchling in the name of business ethics doesn't sit well with some people, but it's a real factor for me. But realistically, is alienating your competitors, many of whom you yourself purchase from or sell to, a good idea?

You won't be surprised I think but I hope my fellow breeders would feel that giving a high end non feeder a second chance as a gift/lower priced animal to someone with the time and passion to try to get it to eat, is a nice idea/gesture. To me it would add to your reputation as a breeder... and do you really think that this would occur in amounts that would threaten prices on the market?

 

[jaxom1957]

I guess placement options would affect my decisions, but it isn't the biggest factor for me....How about a non-feeding golddust-stripe? How is Carol going to feel about me giving away lav-bloods while she is trying to sell them?....If you're already placing a $1,000 order, I might consider throwing in a non-feeding lav-blood if you wanted one. But if you're ordering a single 0.1 lav blood, I'm not going to give you a male non-feeding lav-blood to complete your pair. But I might offer you a free non-feeding charcoal or two. I'm really just thinking out loud here; I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet....

With high end morphs, there is another solution, one that few breeders consider. I have one snake in my home right now, a nonfeeder from last year, that would be considered "high end". It was offered to me under an agreement wherein if the snake can be converted to eating on its own, it will be returned to the breeder and I will receive consideration in the future. I jumped at the opportunity to work with both the breeder, for whom I have a great deal of respect, and with a morph that I might never have even seen in person, much less had in my home. Heck, I would have done it if all I ever received was reimbursement for the mice! I've purchased snakes from the breeder in the past, and will probably do so again in the future, but I probably wouldn't have been able to afford this snake or its offspring anytime in the foreseeable future. To use your example, Carol would not be losing a possible sale of a blood lav because I wouldn't be looking to buy a snake so far out of my price range, and those that can afford more expensive snakes prefer to buy healthy animals that are eating well on their own. I have plenty of time, but very little money.

DiamondLil has a thread about working with nonfeeders, and one with which she had some success went back to its owner once it was eating well. I think of it as similar to raising a puppy to be someone's else seeing-eye dog. The reward is in raising the animal, giving it a good start in life, not in the owning of the puppy. By taking an animal that would have been euthanized, I give it a chance to live and become either a loved pet or a successful breeder. It gives me a chance to put my knowledge and skills to a useful and rewarding purpose.

You are right that the cost and inconvenience of shipping low-end or common morphs might not make sense for either the breeder or the prospective owner. Which animals are "worth saving" is a judgement call, and there are no black or white answers. Each person has to decide where their resources are best used, whether that be their time, their money or their living space. I've decided to use my resources to give problem hatchlings a fighting chance. The healthy offspring won't go begging for homes in any case. The options to breeders don't have to be either "give away" snakes or euthanize them. There are other choices, other arrangements that can benefit breeder, snake and hobbyist, all at the same time. I'd call it a "win-win situation" except I hate that stupid expression! :laugh: