New Anery??

[Tara80]

Honestly, I don't remember what the actual add said but I did buy them knowing full well that they had not been proven one way or the other (I remember that being clarified somewhere); and he was totally upfront and honest with me.

 

[martin-bernstein]

If I remember correctly your Fauna ad simply states “New line of Anery” not possibly a new line. You have based your entire argument on locality and looks. I have produced several anerys that have been as nice as the one you had pictured but they proved out anery type “A”

I will be the first to admit the locality strikes me as odd but to base your hypnosis that this is a new gene of Anerythristic on ascetics and locality alone is irresponsible especially since you have said that you bred the male to three wild caught females instead of breeding it to anerys to prove it out. Establish your claims in truth before making them. I realize proving them out takes time but you could have knocked that out easily in one season with a male by breeding it to an anery and charcoal. It took almost a decade to nail down strawberry hypos due to all the test crosses that had to be done but the leg work was done and it is recognized now so quit skipping steps and do the science and people will take your claims more seriously.

Khaman, you are wrong. If you would have read carefully through their fauna ad, you'd see that they have been up front about the possibility from the get go. The title of the ad is "Potential new line of anery," not, as you claim, "New line of anery." It seems to me a bit unreasonable of you to suggest that they didn't go about this responsibly, especially when you don't even take the time to read what they actually wrote.

If I were them would I have bred the male to anery A and B females immediately? Heck yeah! Would I sell normal hets off at $100/pr? Maybe, maybe not. But either way, I am not in possession of this male. The Taylors are, and its really none of my business how they go about breeding him as long as they are honest (which they have been so far), and document their breedings so that if it does turn out to be a new gene the rest of the corn snake community has access to recorded proof.

 

[Shiari]

I still personally find it silly, and yes, I'm sorry, but also a little suspicious, that this male was not tested to an anery A female in the first round of breedings. If he was put to an anery A female, and produced all aneries, the owner would never have been able to sell off the normal offspring from the other breedings for the price he got. He might have been able to sell the aneries for more than the common price due to the chance to line breed to that look, but most likely not at $100 a pair.

 

[Khaman]

Khaman, you are wrong. If you would have read carefully through their fauna ad, you'd see that they have been up front about the possibility from the get go. The title of the ad is "Potential new line of anery," not, as you claim, "New line of anery."

I did read the fauna ad and at the time the headline said nothing about it being a “Potential New Line” that is why I sent a PM asking what made them think it was a new gene. What I got was locality info and that it looked clean, no breeding tests, no multi generational observations, no outside collaboration. It was self admitted that rather than testing to see if it was a known gene “hets” were produced that prove nothing. If that male was bred to an anery and charcoal female and it produced normals then I could see advertising as a potential new line. This is why I stayed out of the ball python market because someone would see an abnormality in color or pattern and call it a new morph without breeding trials.

It seems to me a bit unreasonable of you to suggest that they didn't go about this responsibly

I think is irresponsible in this day and age to suggest you have new gene when even the obvious has yet to be ruled out.

I am not knocking charging $100 a pair if it is a new gene that might be a steal. If after a few generations it has been shown that this line does not fade or develop the yellows of regular anerys I would say charge $150 a pair I tried to do this for 10 years and failed.

 

[martin-bernstein]

I still personally find it silly, and yes, I'm sorry, but also a little suspicious, that this male was not tested to an anery A female in the first round of breedings. If he was put to an anery A female, and produced all aneries, the owner would never have been able to sell off the normal offspring from the other breedings for the price he got. He might have been able to sell the aneries for more than the common price due to the chance to line breed to that look, but most likely not at $100 a pair.

Silly, yes. Suspicious, why? I don't think we should jump the gun and immediately suspect something fishy. Unless Stu and Amy Taylor have a history of trickery that I am unaware of, I really doubt that these guys are up to no good and here's why:

They've been around for a good while (they have had a fauna account since 2003), and the few BOI posts on them are all positive. Why would they jeopardize their integrity by scamming people for a few measly dollars. If they were selling these guys for $400 bucks a pop it would be a whole different ball game. Or if they were claiming to have discovered a potential new anery line in boas or pythons, the stakes would be substantially higher because they could actually make a generous profit by selling to prospective buyers.
But this isn't the case. These are corn snakes!

I don't know the Taylors so I'm not defending them per say, I have no interest in defending them. I personally would not have bought their het snakes because I personally believe that the sire is very likely an anery A. I'm simply arguing against unfounded and unecessary suspicions.

 

[Shiari]

The explanation was wanting. It wasn't "I didn't have access to" but rather "I didn't want to muddy the waters"... Muddy the waters *how* exactly when you haven't ruled out anery A?

The testing to anery A should have absolutely been priority on this before outcrossing to create hets. It's not even really a "potential" new line because the old lines haven't been ruled out at all!

 

[Tara80]

I fully understood what he was meaning and intending. No reason to mince words or stir anything up. The guy is not a corn snake breeder, he doesn't really care. The snake is/was unusual looking and it might be something worth pursuing by someone else. That's ALL. This is something really silly to worry about.

 

[snakesngex]

Wow, Khamam and Shiari. Guys, lighten up. We're talking about a "possible" 5th line of Anery here, not something new and earth shattering. Think about it for a minute. If I had immediately run this male to an Anery A female and no anerys came out what would I have? Double hets. Anything coming from those babies would then be suspect of potentially being Anery A and not the new line. Why would I want to muddy up the gene pool that fast? This is a cool little experiment, a "wouldn't it be cool if" type of thing. I know that everyone that bought hets knows it may or may not pan out, but it will be fun for everyone to try.

I didn't do things the way you would have done. Does that really make me so wrong? Neither of you bought a pair so you've got nothing invested in this, not sure where all the high and mighty hostility is coming from. Honestly guys, the majority of the hets went to locals and friends, a few sales online and a few at shows. I've told everyone that bought them that they "may be" a new line, not that they are. No one has been bamboozled or tricked in any way. I really don't see why the two of you are taking this so very personally.

Its a fun little project, nothing more, nothing less. If that makes me irresponsible because I didn't follow what you guys would have done, oops.

 

[Outcast]

How many females can 1 male be bred to before its too many?
I wonder if it would have been possible to breed this male to the WC females, and breed him to both Anery A and Anery B females. That way you would have had hets for the very clean anery that he is, and would have been able to make a ruling on whether or not he was Anery A, or B. This way you would have not had muddied up the water and still sold your baby's for as much as you had because there are people out there who really like a clean Anery.... I am one of those people. I love your male, he is gorgeous.

 

[Shiari]

We're talking about a "possible" 5th line of Anery here, not something new and earth shattering. Think about it for a minute. If I had immediately run this male to an Anery A female and no anerys came out what would I have? Double hets.

Gee, that's *exactly* what was done with charcoal.

Look, breeding to a single anery A female AND a WC would have given you both options. And would have answered the 'new line or not' question in a single year.

The reason *why* I didn't buy from you is precisely because you didn't test him. I was not about to pay $50 for a *normal* that might simply be carrying anery A. I could have gotten a normal het sunkissed phantom for that same price at Daytona!

A new line of anery would be new. And people would want to rush and add amel to see what that version would look like, and add diffused and see what that would look like, and add it to lavender, and sunkissed and motley and stripe because it might do different things, the way that charcoal and anery A do different things. There's a reason why blizzards tend to be more expensive at shows than snows. They're 'newer'.

 

[snakesngex]

Well Shiari, I disagree with you. Simple as that. You can continue to tell me what I "should" have done, but it doesn't change anything. If all goes well we'll know in about 6 months whether he is or isn't compatible with Anery A.

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

I agree that anery a and b should have been tested ASAP, but as far as I can see, Stu has been upfront and honest about the whole thing.

I personally think it will probably just be a nice line of anery a. But hopefully I'm wrong. Regardless if someone doesn't want to risk $100 then they don't have to. But there's no reason to attack the guy over it. They're his snakes to price as he sees fit and its the buyers' money to spend as they see fit.

So long as he's honest and up front about the project, then I see no harm.

 

[maxfox426]

I guess I don't really see the problem here. Granted, I also haven't seen the original ads, but I even then this all seems like a strange argument.

What is wrong with Stu's decision to test out this potentially new gene? Why did he HAVE to test it immediately against Anery A &/or B? It seems to me that the end result will ultimately be the same, aside from taking a generation (or so) longer to prove/disprove with the way he chose to test. Am I mistaken?

As for marketing a "potential new gene", why is this a problem? Really, I'm not trying to be dense, I just don't understand. Would it have been better if he sat for years on the secret, testing all the options until results were proven, then throw it out there as a confirmed new gene without anybody ever hearing about it before? Would more people believe his credibility then? Or would the same questions be asked at that point, too?

It seems to me that this way, now all of us know about the possibility. Whether or not this "new anery" proves out in the future, the community isn't going to be taken by surprise if/when it officially appears. Plus, there seem to be quite a few other people have a chance to test out this gene, as well. From what I've read, those folks that bought these het. animals were aware of what they were buying from the get-go, and it was their choice to make the purchase. It doesn't sound like anybody has been tricked into testing this possibility. With more folks on the project, we may even learn more faster!

That's my opinion, for what it's worth.

That said, I hope something does come of it, because that specimen is stunning! I just love how clean it looks.

 

[omni]

If I had immediately run this male to an Anery A female and no anerys came out what would I have? Double hets. Anything coming from those babies would then be suspect of potentially being Anery A and not the new line.

Actually, that's a fault in logic. Breeding double hets would give normals, the Anery A, the 'New Line', and hatchlings homo for both, if it's a new anery gene.

If it IS a new line, there should be some differences apparent in the non-normal f2's, and as they grow.

Muddy the waters? It would definately clear the waters to see f1 normals from Anery A/B cross, as you have near 100% positive proof of having a gene incompatible with A or B.

That's fine if you haven't the time, desire to take on another project. If I were to wear your shoes, definately I'd skeptical and just sell at a usual market price for het anery A's.

For me it just raised too many issues that an unlikely new discovery be marketed way above market for het anerys without any supporting tests.

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

Actually, that's a fault in logic. Breeding double hets would give normals, the Anery A, the 'New Line', and hatchlings homo for both, if it's a new anery gene.

If it IS a new line, there should be some differences apparent in the non-normal f2's, and as they grow.

Actually, this is also a fault in logic. What if it is a mutation in the same genetic pathway that gives rise to anery a. So even though the genotype is different, the phenotype may not be different (or glaringly different).

So even if he tests it against anery A and gets all normals, it doesn't necessarily mean the F2 would be distinguishable from one another.

 

[iculatr]

Again after another shed, theses babies are really proven to have some nice clean patterns. They are getting better with every shed. I will keep posting pictures as they mature.

 

[LeoEyes]

Whether these guys turn out to be het for a 'new anery' or simply nice anery A's I know im happy with my perchase. The ones I have are nice looking friendly snakes and if they just produce some pretty anery a's that will be fine. The anery gene is one of my favorite after all.

 

[omni]

Actually, this is also a fault in logic. What if it is a mutation in the same genetic pathway that gives rise to anery a. So even though the genotype is different, the phenotype may not be different (or glaringly different).

So even if he tests it against anery A and gets all normals, it doesn't necessarily mean the F2 would be distinguishable from one another.

You are right... hehe but I left myself an out in using 'SHOULD' see phenotype differences.
I would be happy to just see a line-bred Anery A like this available. Glad I'm not at the front line of trying do breeding tests! What if in fact as you say, the phenotype wouldn't differ greatly from other anery's? That would be hairy!
There's much variation already in Anery A. The original sire might not reproduce his look if is genetic, and not easy to immediately line-breed for that either.
You guys breed 'em, I'll just sit back and admire, and hope get 1 later on

 

[chris68]

jmho I think crossing the male out to w/c females gives a good baseline for folks to begin with...It's not like he's asking an arm and a leg for pairs...and plenty of people who start out in the hobby have paid 50 bucks at Petco for normals...It's a relatively inexpensive gamble for someone who really likes gray cornsnakes...I'm not and have three so I'll pass lol, but it will be fun to watch and see how it develops next spring :*)

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

You are right... hehe but I left myself an out in using 'SHOULD' see phenotype differences.

True, but even "should" is pretty definitive. But you are correct, that if the F1 are normal, then one might "expect" to see differences in the F2. Oh well, only time will tell.

(Don't take this as me being argumentative or anything like that. I work in a research lab that does tons of genetics, and over the years I've learned to think of every possibility and many of the assumptions you make are often wrong.)