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Snake mills?

jesserca

jesserca

I may need snake rehab.
So yesterday while teaching a student of mine asked about puppy mills, which I gave my strong opinion and urged them to spay and neuter. (Great subject for a BAND class I know...) Then one of the students asked me about my snakes and people that have tons of snakes, they asked "isn't that a snake mill?"

I responded by saying first off there is a huge difference between snakes and dogs and that all my snakes were well taken care of and live happy lives. But it stuck with me, I have never looked at it that way. What are your thoughts on the issue of people that have tons and tons of snakes, is it cruel? I don't think so but my 7th graders would love to here your thoughts.
 
I think there is a huge difference, and I will tell you why.
For a snake to be happy and healthy, it needs shelter, heat, water and food and to be cleaned when it poops. That is it.

Puppies need not only that, but social stimulation, affection, and a whole lot of interaction to be a healthy happy pet. Puppies can not develop properly spending their whole lives in a cage, they need to be with people. They need to be housebroken and wormed and to get their shots. They can get distemper, rabies, parvo and alot of other things. Puppies need to know they are loved, and they need to feel secure.
 
Do you mean snake mills, where breeders produce a large number of babies for resale? (Think Brian Barczyk, for example. No one could accuse him of mistreating his snakes, or at least from what I've seen).

Or hoarders? People who have a hundred or more snakes and just keep getting more and more and more? I think the opportunity to get in over one's head in that type of situation is a lot greater than someone who is breeding to produce saleable babies who often has hired help.
 
I have to agree with Bethany on this one. Puppies/dog need affection and attention where as snakes live a solace life. They do not seek out human or even other snakes for companionship. "Most" snake breeders do not do it to make a ton of money. Unlike puppy mills, they own the snakes because they love the reptiles and the hobby. Reptile breeders/owners are a different breed them selves. We have a passion for what we do. I'm sure there are a few out there that raise and breed for the sole purpose of money. I am equally sure not all take good care of their animals. But I am willing to bet that those people are rare to find.

Just a thought--why not show the children this site? Let them look at what we are all about. Show them we are a community of reptile lovers and would not harm nor mistreat our animals. :)
 
Good points above, to which I'll add my thoughts:

There's very little money to be made from breeding Corn Snakes on a small to medium level, so the concept of a "snake mill" is probably redundant. I have 13 Corns including 4 breeding females. That sounds like a lot. However, I produce between 60 and 90 hatchlings each year and just about break even - they pay for food and replacement equipment. I don't rely on that income in any way as I know that demand for hatchlings could dry up at any time (has happened to me twice over the years). Puppy mills purely exist to make profit for the owners. I think you'll find that most hobby breeders make a loss, many break even and only a few make a profit. I have Corns as pets first and breed them for the joy of it.

Major breeders (like Kathy, Don and Rich) are few and far between, as the job is so difficult and time-consuming. They run professional breeding units and practice excellent husbandry - the consequence of not doing so would ultimately result in a loss of their good name/reputation and therefore customers. The reptile world is still relatively small and bad news would travel fast. Puppy mills have no similar network of potentail customers; they can operate anonymously and so don't have any such considerations about the care and conditions of their breeding animals.

"Puppy mills" are places where the profits take precedence over welfare, as dogs will breed under some pretty horrific conditions and when they're not in good health. Corn Snakes that are stressed or in poor condition are unlikely to breed successfully. If you want to breed Corn Snakes, a prerequisite is that you keep them in the correct conditions and in the best physical shape possible. Corn Snake breeders have to maintain good husbandry practices, whereas puppy mill owners can get away with doing the bare minimum for their animals.

Also, you need to bear in mind the number of hatchlings involved. One healthy adult female Corn that double-clutches, could produce 20-30 hatchlings each year. By sheer volume alone, that might make it appear that a breeder is just "churning them out" for the sake of it. Corns are designed to lay a lot of eggs, as in the wild only 1% of them would hatch successfully and survive into adulthood (otherwise Florida and surrounding states would be wall-to-wall Corn Snakes!). In captivity, 99% of fertile eggs actually hatch successfully because we can keep them safe from predators, disease, fungus, unfavourable levels of moisture (too dry/too wet) and dangerous temperature fluctuations.

Sorry, that was a it of a brain-dump! Hope it helps.
 
Its a basic fact of how each animal would exist in the wild. Dogs are pack animals, they prefer the company of their own kind. Snakes are generally solitary, coming together usually only to breed. In that I feel comfortable with all my snakes warm and cozy in their tubs alone-hey, they still get breeding time!
 
Great thoughts, all!

I was thinking pretty much what has been already posted, as I read the question. True companion animals, such as dogs, cats, and horses, etc, should really be socialized with people at a very young age. Snakes do not need that. The main psychological need for baby snakes is security from perceived predators, not socialization.

However, very small breeders might spend more time "playing" with their babies, which means they might start out more tame for the customer. But in my experience, whether a corn gets used to people in the first month or two, or as a yearling, makes little or no difference in its tameness as an adult. That is certainly not true of mammals or birds that are to become friendly, interactive, pets.

So I think the prime importance of snake breeders (big, small, or in between) is to provide a healthy baby. Whether it is used to people or not is of little long term importance. The customer can easily take it from there, if he or she is motivated to care for it properly.
 
My thoughts on the propriety/impropriety issues of puppy mills v. snake breeders mirror those that have been offered.

As a fellow teacher and a parent, I want to applaud jesserca for being willing to discuss issues that are important to students. Life is more than subject matter, whatever the subject. All students deserve teachers who care enough to sensitively discuss life as well as to competently present curricular material. Brava!
 
Caryl said:
My thoughts on the propriety/impropriety issues of puppy mills v. snake breeders mirror those that have been offered.

As a fellow teacher and a parent, I want to applaud jesserca for being willing to discuss issues that are important to students. Life is more than subject matter, whatever the subject. All students deserve teachers who care enough to sensitively discuss life as well as to competently present curricular material. Brava!
Click to expand...
This. As both a student and an aspiring teacher, I feel no shame when I say... every teacher I've had who refused to talk about anything but the subject they taught was disliked and boring. If my band (had I had band) teacher brought puppy mills, that band teacher would stop being a band teacher and be an actually person who thinks about things other than trumpets and percussion to me.
 
Caryl said:
My thoughts on the propriety/impropriety issues of puppy mills v. snake breeders mirror those that have been offered.

As a fellow teacher and a parent, I want to applaud jesserca for being willing to discuss issues that are important to students. Life is more than subject matter, whatever the subject. All students deserve teachers who care enough to sensitively discuss life as well as to competently present curricular material. Brava!
Click to expand...

*Blushes* Thank you very much.
 
Pepper said:
This. As both a student and an aspiring teacher, I feel no shame when I say... every teacher I've had who refused to talk about anything but the subject they taught was disliked and boring. If my band (had I had band) teacher brought puppy mills, that band teacher would stop being a band teacher and be an actually person who thinks about things other than trumpets and percussion to me.
Click to expand...

Good I hope they like me! LOL. Yeah I think I am going to try and show them this sight, they ask about my snakes almost everyday and usually I try not to go off on a tangent because we have a concert coming up, but the whole puppy mill issue took me right off track. I'm hoping one day to take my snakes to school and have a conservation lesson one day.
 
jesserca said:
Good I hope they like me! LOL. Yeah I think I am going to try and show them this sight, they ask about my snakes almost everyday and usually I try not to go off on a tangent because we have a concert coming up, but the whole puppy mill issue took me right off track. I'm hoping one day to take my snakes to school and have a conservation lesson one day.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's nice when they like you - as long as they understand that you're still in charge. :)

Snakes at school can be a powerful teaching tool; I have classroom pets including corns. There have been a lot of positive results, and I have never had a problem. HOWEVER - be sure you have your administrators' understanding and permission before bringing any animal into your classroom. It's best to send a letter to parents/guardians as well, requiring their signature. (This is one letter the kids bring back. They want to be able to interact with the animals.)

If you'd like any help with the above, PM when the time comes. I'd be happy to help out if I can.
 
One thing to keep in mind when discussing puppy mills...

I receive several pet trade magazines devoted to the WHOLE pet trade. A number of shops have been getting negative feedback from customers no matter WHO they get their puppies from. The public has been so brainwashed by humaniac groups that many now believe that ALL puppies at shops come from puppy mills. Practically nobody wants to support, or even allow, puppy mills (and rightfully so!). But remember that HSUS, PETA, etc, are excellent propaganda machines, and students (or anyone else) should not automatically believe everything they hear.

Although I personally believe that pet shops would generally be better off by partnering with local rescues, and possibly local breeders, to temporarily bring in animals for adoption (avoiding all of the expense and labor caused by keeping cats and dogs, making profit on the supplies instead), this IS SUPPOSED TO BE the land of the free. If shops are selling healthy, socialized, puppies and kittens, then they should not be pressured to stop because of animal rights views.

I don't want to minimize the abuse in puppy mills. But I also don't want to minimize the spread of lies and propaganda spread by HSUS, PETA, and similar anti pet industry organizations.
 
This would be an excellent opportunity to talk about the stepwise interaction of primitive animals all the way up through more sophisticated social groups like ants, bees, lions, wolves, great apes, and humans.
Have the kids name the attributes that are required for (or are a product of) group interaction. Likewise (snakes as an example), animals that lead solitary lives, have minimal interaction with juveniles, ecology, population density, and food source availability, all in the natural wilds, of course.
 
kathylove said:
I receive several pet trade magazines devoted to the WHOLE pet trade. A number of shops have been getting negative feedback from customers no matter WHO they get their puppies from. The public has been so brainwashed by humaniac groups that many now believe that ALL puppies at shops come from puppy mills. Practically nobody wants to support, or even allow, puppy mills (and rightfully so!). But remember that HSUS, PETA, etc, are excellent propaganda machines, and students (or anyone else) should not automatically believe everything they hear.

Although I personally believe that pet shops would generally be better off by partnering with local rescues, and possibly local breeders, to temporarily bring in animals for adoption (avoiding all of the expense and labor caused by keeping cats and dogs, making profit on the supplies instead), this IS SUPPOSED TO BE the land of the free. If shops are selling healthy, socialized, puppies and kittens, then they should not be pressured to stop because of animal rights views.

I don't want to minimize the abuse in puppy mills. But I also don't want to minimize the spread of lies and propaganda spread by HSUS, PETA, and similar anti pet industry organizations.
Click to expand...
I don't know if they all do this, but this is actually what my local Petco does. I know they have a seriously bad rep with reptiles and fish, but at my location they also have ferrets, birds, rodents, and, and Saturdays and Sundays, respectively, cats and dogs brought in from shelters. My dog was actually bought there through a foster care. She was found starving and alone in the desert and is still the most nervous, wussy dog I've ever met, but she was mostly healthy and happy. I agree that that is a great idea for pet shops to do. Perhaps they could do it for reptiles and fish in the future, so that the poor husbandry practices they're known for can be eliminated.
 
Pepper said:
I don't know if they all do this, but this is actually what my local Petco does. I know they have a seriously bad rep with reptiles and fish, but at my location they also have ferrets, birds, rodents, and, and Saturdays and Sundays, respectively, cats and dogs brought in from shelters.
Click to expand...

Petcos all do that. They run adoption days in partnership with local rescues. It's one of the better features of the company.
 
Well, I do want to play a bit of "devils advocate" here and say that I do believe "snake mills" exist. I have witnessed breeders who are breeding those females as soon as possible, keep them in as small as possible tubs, and have even been famed to even try and TRIPLE clutch. I didn't think that was even possible but I guess it is...

Also to me if someone has tubs or containers that are dirty every now and then fine, that happens particularly when large numbers of animals are being kept, but when they are CONSISTANTLY dirty and or moldy? Not too sure I would want to support someone who keeps animals, no matter how "non-sentient" they may seem in squalor :(

So to the original question do I think snakemills exist and are cruel? YUP.... Thank goodness they don't seem to be very common though...

Rebecca
 
I have to agree with pgr8dnlvr on this. I do believe in snake and/or reptile mills. I know most people automatically think of neglected and abused animals when they hear the word "mill" but I also think of massively produced animals that there may not be homes for. It doesn't matter what species it is, too many pets are being over bred.
I believe a responsible breeder of any animal will do everything in their power to place their animals in caring homes, not mass sell to pet store or ship to who ever has a pay pal account.
Look at all the animals in shelters, including snakes. Corns can be bought for $5 at shows and craigslist is full of freebies. Before long corns will be like iguanas, disposable pets that people won't care for right or seek vet attention for.
 
I'm not sure you are "agreeing" with me in full sense of the words. For me I take the word "Mill" to be used when the animals which are being used to do the producing are being abused, by either being overbred, or kept in sub-par ways without regard.

I do breed in large numbers and do MY BEST to send them off to the best possible homes and stores. If I am "stuck" with hundreds of babies that don't sell, that's MY problem and I will do the responsible thing and care for them while they are in my charge.

The "disposable pet" discussion is a completely different one all together with me.. But I live life KNOWING there are two sides to every coin <er issue> ;)

Rebecca
 
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