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stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

Would reminding folks that the United States has been called, at least in the not-so-distant past, "The Melting Pot" be just a little bit metaphorical right about now? Or maybe I'll just shut up, have another drink and simply look at photos.
 
I don't really see the big deal. I just recently purcased a golddust motley knowing full well of this "issue". I have been breeding animals of different types for many years but am just starting into snakes. If there is hybrid blood in these it is such a small amount that to me it is not worth worring about. I will enjoy Nugget for her beauty which is exactly why I bought her. I have no plans on breeding her in the future unless i get a golddust male. I also purchased a creamsicle 2 years ago and I have been enjoying watching her grow.
 
dave partington said:
So, back when Rosy Corns were P. g. rosaceae, if they were bred with P. g. g., then those offspring would have been hybrids, but now that Rosy has been re-taxonomized and is a P. g. g., it is okay to breed them together.

So, an old cross would be hybrid stock, but a new cross would not be.

Alternately, P. g. slowinski, now, if bred to P. g. g. , produces hybrids, but 15 years ago when it was still a P. g. g., the breedings of that with other P. g. g. would not be hybrids.

Right?
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^^^ This sums it all up in my opinion.
 
I completely agree with Dave and Wyldrose. In the taxonomy world there are lumpers and splitters. I for one am a lumper.

I know this isn't corn related but I have bred a cal-king to a brooks king and the babies looked EXACTLY like eastern chain kings.......coincidence? I think not.

Most colubrids are FAR more closely related than most "purists" want to admit. If these animals were as different as some claim then why would the anery gene in corns be compatible with the anery gene in hondurans? Obviously they had a common ancestry thousands of years ago. I am not saying a honduran is the same as a corn, obviously they are not, but in my opinion the colubrid family tree looks a little more like a family pole than a family bush.
 
Ryan Beatty said:
I know this isn't corn related but I have bred a cal-king to a brooks king and the babies looked EXACTLY like eastern chain kings.......coincidence? I think not.
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Yeah, so what?? you just pointed out the main problem with the very lame point you attempted to make. A brooks king (floridana) x Eastern getula that was man-made on purpose will only get sold and dispersed around the country AS authentic Eastern Chain kings down the road, only to display weird bizarre "off" intermediate phenotypes here and there randomly later on because of it. Not to mention they would be half bogus man-made crosses. Is it a great thing to purposely dilute other known to be authentic Eastern getula in hobbyist's collections all over the country originating from say North Carolina, South Carolina, New Jersey, or anywhere else for that matter?. Who cares if they will breed and look fairly similar sometimes? That is even worse than them looking extremely obvious. because most hobbyists can't properly ID a cornsnake from an anaconda to be quite honest.

Ryan Beatty said:
Most colubrids are FAR more closely related than most "purists" want to admit. If these animals were as different as some claim then why would the anery gene in corns be compatible with the anery gene in hondurans? Obviously they had a common ancestry thousands of years ago. I am not saying a honduran is the same as a corn, obviously they are not, but in my opinion the colubrid family tree looks a little more like a family pole than a family bush.
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Again, what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?. What does possibly being related thousands of years ago or hundreds of thousands of years ago have to do with some shlep intentionally breeding crosses in his basement and polluting known genuine lineage animals in collections with his intentional man-made crosses for chrissakes??

All I can say is that I am extremely thankful you don't own and work with some of the extremely rare stuff I am working with here. With your mindset you would have them all screwed up in no time and looking like a typical "hobby Hondo" in no time when right now they are the only known authentic bloodline of Lampropeltis t.abnorma in the entire U.S. or Europe!

I will sell you some 5 carat cubic zirconia for genuine diamond market value if all that matters to you is if something "looks" fairly close to being authentic when it is clearly NOT!..LOL!!

Also, I will sell you a "clone" fiberglass Shelby Cobra Stallion kit-car for $250,000 as well since it "looks" pretty close to a real one. :shrugs:


~Doug
 
I'm stuck in the office waiting for my freight, so here's my LAST comments/thoughts/opinions lol etc on this issue...my O P I N I O N folks

In regards to corn snakes:

a. All morph corns are suspect. Until DNA testing is done on each and every line no one is going to to be able to definitively, 100% plus without a shadow of a doubt that "A" line is pure and "B" isn't. You can say "I see hybrid markers" or "I heard he bred so and so to a 3 headed moon snake" but it's all guesswork and hearsay. Whether or not you choose to believe what you are told, considering (or not) the source of your info is up to you.

b. We all should care. Because there are folks here and elsewhere I consider "friends" (as much as having "cyber relationships" with fellow hobbyists makes them a "friend" ;) ) that really have concerns about this I have to care that if they bought something from me it would be exactly what I tell them it is, and more that they would take me at my word because they trust my word.

c. My goal is to produce very pretty pink "snakes". Yes they are as much a corn as the next morph, but they from a suspected baclground/bloodline and will always be sold/traded as such...

jmho and Happy Friday :*)

Chris
 
Same old stuff from Dmong.........sigh.

If you have ever seen any of my ads you know I CLEARLY disclose the exact background of any and ALL hybrids I sell.

If it's a hybrid, I'm proud of it and will shout it from the roof tops, if it's not a hybrid then I represent it as such, pure and simple.

I do everything in my power to make sure the hybrids I sell are represented properly. Just because someone could take on of my Candy Colored Imperial Pueblaclowns (I should have those this year by the way) and breed it to a pure pueblan DOES NOT mean they couldn't take a pure pueblan and breed it to one of your "better than everyone else's" pure hondurans.

Once a snake leaves your possession there is little or nothing you can do to control what others do with it whether that being making hybrids with it or completely neglecting it's basic needs of food, water and proper housing.

Unless you have done DNA testing on all your snakes you could be sitting on one of those forbidden "frankensnakes" thats 0.00000000000001% not pure, oh NO! You need to destroy your entire collection now............give me a break.

Everyone who knows me knows I usually sit back and stay out of debates on forums but I've been around long enough and have done enough research and breedings to have a valid voice in these arguments.
 
asnakecalled? said:
ok so i'm still confused are they or are not hybrids because on ians vivarium they are getting labeled as corn x gray rat snake - http://iansvivarium.com/morphs/species/hybrids/ultra/

and on the corn snake they are getting classed as pure corn snake -
http://thecornsnake.com/morph-corn-snake-morphs/single-trait/ultramel-corn-snake

am i just reading to much into this should they just be labeled as ultra
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Ian's Vivarium, The Morph Gallery, South Mountain Reptiles or ANY webswite/breeder/whatever cannot be used as the Know-All and End-All of what is what. These places are currently choosing to use caution with their labels, preferring to say they are hybrids and not pure. The answer is...WE DON'T KNOW! Labeling all offspring from any pairing that contains the ultra gene in one parent, or whose lineage somewhere back 10 generations as having ultra in it as a hybrid is what the "purists" want done. Unfortunately, no one knows exactly how many snakes are out there that did come from an ultra parent 10 generations ago but that information has since been been lost as for quite some time, anything with ultra in it was NOT considered a hybrid.
 
Nicely said Susan.

The exact same thing can be said about creamsicles. How many amels produced from a creamsicle to amel breeding that did not look like text book creamsicles have been passed as amel corns? Thousands....probably tens of thousands.

At this point it is entirely impossible to track down every corn from every breeder that has ultra/ultramel or creamsicle in it's background.

Whether you like it or not, that's just the way it is.
 
Ryan Beatty said:
Same old stuff from Dmong.........sigh.

If you have ever seen any of my ads you know I CLEARLY disclose the exact background of any and ALL hybrids I sell.

If it's a hybrid, I'm proud of it and will shout it from the roof tops, if it's not a hybrid then I represent it as such, pure and simple.

I do everything in my power to make sure the hybrids I sell are represented properly. Just because someone could take on of my Candy Colored Imperial Pueblaclowns (I should have those this year by the way) and breed it to a pure pueblan DOES NOT mean they couldn't take a pure pueblan and breed it to one of your "better than everyone else's" pure hondurans.

Once a snake leaves your possession there is little or nothing you can do to control what others do with it whether that being making hybrids with it or completely neglecting it's basic needs of food, water and proper housing.

Unless you have done DNA testing on all your snakes you could be sitting on one of those forbidden "frankensnakes" thats 0.00000000000001% not pure, oh NO! You need to destroy your entire collection now............give me a break.

Everyone who knows me knows I usually sit back and stay out of debates on forums but I've been around long enough and have done enough research and breedings to have a valid voice in these arguments.
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Well, first-off, I would never elude to most Honduran milk's being genuinely authentic, because I know FULL-WELL most ALL are not. I do however know of just two specific bloodlines that are known to be authentic. And keeping them that way is and SHOULD always be of paramount importance. The VAST majority of so-called "Honduran" milksnakes are generally a subspecific composite of one or more other closely related Central American forms Ryan. I would never claim in a million years that they are 100% authentic either. As a matter of fact I go to great lengths to point this fact out to people on my website. The HUGE difference being with them is that they were never initially crossed intentionally since their first importation into the states sevral decades ago. It was from them not being properly identified and being collected from many different neighboring areas besides the central Atlantic side of Nicaragua and Honduras. Then they got labeled and sent over as whatever the importers wanted to call them and label them as. Then after they came here, if some where truly authentic when imported (which a good number certainly were, U.S. hobbyists didn't know the differences between the Latin milks EITHER and simply bred them to other snakes that had rings and a snout band, and called them "Hondurans". This is FAAAR different than KNOWINGLY crossing snakes that are OBVIOUSLY a different type altogether.

Also, as I mentioned before, once a hybrid leaves a seller's table or home, they will later be sold and bought by other's down the line as what they best represent, it's simple as that!........that's how the snake hobby "ACTUALLY" works Ryan. At least I will never intentionally change a snakes subspecific type one bteeding year by KNOWINGLY introducing one to something else I know FULL-WELL is a totally different kind of snake.....huge difference my friend, and this fact cannot be logically disputed by anyone either. The Hondo thing all started by pure ignorance and a plethora of factors that led to what they are today, not from INTENTIONALLY crossing them, although many have done so as well over the years. I see it every single day as a matter of fact.

Also, things like creamsicle corns started at a time when herpetoculture was in it's infancy and was carried out innocently enough I guess, but in today's hobby it is so ridiculously out of control there are very few things left that are genetically and subspecifically authentic any more. The way I look at it, one has only TWO (2) choices to make. And that is to intentionally keep snakes bred to the same species/subspecies, or DON'T!. I think out of those two choices the first choice to keep things as genuinely true (be it morph or normal) as well-matched to the same kind as humanly possible. But this takes knowing about a lot of different things, and I find that many people wanting to be breeders in more recent years simply want to "make snakes", and not really bother themselves to know or appreciate the real differences of many types of snakes of the world.

What sickens me is that many people in the hobby now days only care about a snake's authenticity so they can know what specific type of snake and the percentage ratio of what they are CROSSING!. So in essence, hybridizers rely on people that care enough to keep thing genuine ony so they can conveniently muck them up!

Yeah, "give me a break" alright! At least a few people in this hobby still know how the hobby "actually" works. Thanks for the attempt in telling me how it works though...HAHAHA!!!! :roflmao:

Soooo,...rock on with those awesome "Frankensnakes" buddy!... :roflmao:



~Doug
 
This seems to be a highly personalised subject, but I don't see how the mud-slinging and veiled insults will help.
Personally, I want to breed cornsnakes. I accept that I have no way of knowing the possible percentage of any hybrid blood in my collection but I intend to try to avoid knowingly adding or breeding corns that do have hybrid blood. So I wouldn't knowingly buy a cremsicle, or anything with ultra listed in it's background. At the same time, I personally wouldn't slate anyone else who likes the way those snakes look and wants to buy or to breed them. It's a matter of choice.
Horses for courses, each to their own. ( I do own a goin/brooks king, just as a pet, because I love how he looks and couldn't resist him as a little bright orange worm)
 
Here's my stance- if you're going to breed hybrids have the decency to makr them as such and inform your customers as such. There's a huge amount of natural intergrades that just happen as a result of sub-species coming into different areas and such. They're not bad, but they're not pure. Many of our Cornsnake mutations, I think DID come from other species, but until proven it's still just a Cornsnake. Our hobby has changed so much since the 70's and 60's, somewhat for the better and somewhat for the worse. These animals that are known hybrids should be marked as such.
 
This forum has gotten way off topic.

Dmong you really should come down off that high horse your own.

If you want to continue this discussion in private feel free to e-mail or pm me.

I will not participate in any more mud-slinging with you out of respect for this forum.

Thanks
 
Ryan Beatty said:
This forum has gotten way off topic.

Dmong you really should come down off that high horse your own.

If you want to continue this discussion in private feel free to e-mail or pm me.

I will not participate in any more mud-slinging with you out of respect for this forum.

Thanks
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That's okay Ryan,...no real need to go on anyway when it can't be understood. Making a strong effort to keep snakes authentic for future collections in the hobby isn't what I would call a "high horse". Anyone can "pseudo-justify" why they do certain things and that what they do doesn't affect others if they try hard enough. Producing indistinguishable animals on absolute purpose just because someone can and are "different" and because there is a market of some kind isn't what I would call being real responsible to the hobby. Nobody will ever later breed these rare abnorma I have and come back to me one day claiming they look like Imperial Turbo Pueblancorns, etc.. and wonder if what they got wasn't something else entirely. That would also go for the Outer Banks kingsnakes I work with and many others too with the exception of the hobby Hondo's I mentioned previously. You won't find any Cal. king or Stillwater hypo bullsnake in my L.g.sticticeps either. And that's because I make sure that doesn't happen so others know exactly what they are getting and can tell themselves by the phenotype they display as well. There's no questioning what they are down the road. Man-made crosses will always be confused with something else down the road at any given point depending on what they look like at any given time or what particular cross percentages they happen to have.

Anyway, just for an example, The precious few true L.t.abnorma that were in the hobby many years ago totally disappeared back in the early 90's because of blatant carelessness and ignorantly being crossed Ryan. Would it be a great thing in your opinion to do this all over again on purpose?. And why should it be any different with ANY type of snake?. It doesn't matter to me if the market price on a certain type of snake is $5 or 5,000, I would never breed them to something else they are not because if that was done it would only initiate more undiscernible snakes into the hobby......like there isn't enough of this already). That choice in my opinion would certainly help the hobby rather than make it worse than it already is....does that make just a little bit of sense?

Anyway, no need for personal emails Ryan Beatty, it's not like it would go any different there either. So with that said,.......ta!-ta! :sidestep:



cheers, ~Doug
 
Sorry everyone. I don't know Doug, but I agree wholeheartedly with him. He has a better way with words than I do, but my sentiments mirror his.
 
'''If you want to continue this discussion in private feel free to e-mail or pm me.""

I'll never understood this...stance.

Why????
 
Lennycorn said:
'''If you want to continue this discussion in private feel free to e-mail or pm me.""

I'll never understood this...stance.

Why????
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That's what someone says when they don't want people thinking about what they say. This is the same old defense every time this subject comes up that people defending the hybrids they make try and use. The problem is they don't want to have a intelligent conversation because this is what they do, why change, it's already done. The excuse is, if don't do it, someone else will. It's pure laziness and greed.
 
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