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The Domestication of Reptiles and it's Effect on the Reptile Hobby?

kathylove said:
Amazon tree boas (especially wild caught specimens) are among the least friendly of all. Yet they are not too difficult to care for, especially compared to the "relatively" more docile chondros.
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A good example here is Meg F's work on selling "hand tame" Amazon Tree Boas. Not sure, but I'd guess Meg probably selects breeding adults from the tamest specimens she can find, and considers that as a trait along with color pattern, and then puts forth the effort to consistently handle hatchlings. It works too-- I speak from personal experience!!
 
I haven't personally heard of any "domestication" but I would think it would be a benefit to the hobby over all. If say snakes were more domesticated would you think there would be as many states wanting to ban them (the fear factor). Wouldn’t the sales of them increase!! And taking the “’wildness”’ out of them would not affect there specific needs or requirements. Docile or aggressive snake will still need certain needs.
 
I can tell you from personal experience that having docile snakes is making a difference. A friend of mine was absolutely terrified of snakes. And has heard me in the past relate stories of my own fears. (got a bad bite from snake as a child) Talking to me she thought if I was willing to put myself at the snakes mercy so to speak with my fears she would try handling one. So she came over and I brought out one of the calmest easy going corns I have. Saw me handle it and got brave and eventually worked up the courage to try. She now is in love with corns snakes. And pestering her husband they should get one. He owns a BP that she still won't go near. But corns she wants.

So living proof that docility wins us more friends and future herpers.
 
I"m pretty sure there was an article a few years back about Bob Clark and his efforts in breeding "domesticated" anaconda's, by picking the calmest ones to breed...
 
batesz said:
I am skeptical about the tameness of corn snakes and how it would influence their ability to survive if released. Obviously the only ones that would have a chance are those morphs close to the natural colors; however, there is no evidence that captive bred snakes could NOT survive in the wild.
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Actually there is lots of proof of them surviving in the wild.

First was my snow corn who was missing for a year and found in my front yard fat and healthy...and in fact LARGER than the ones I fed myself on the Munson plan.

Second display of wild morph snakes is by the owner of this site. Rich has released quite a few snakes into the wilds around his home in Florida. He has in fact found baby lavendars (if my memory serves) under leaf litter that he did not breed himself. So there is proof that they can survive.

For the most part corns hide during the day...they are nighttime hunters and prowlers. Color really doesn't matter as much in the dark. Not that a blizzard would not stick out in the moonlight...but it's certainly possible to survive. Anerys and Amels of course were FIRST found in the wild or else we would not have them to jump start so many morphs.

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Sorry that went a bit off topic.

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Thank you Kathy for seeing that my "in" joke was just that. A lighthearted look at the past. That David sorta follows the same paths as he did as a younger boy.
I am very dissapointed in him. He starts these deep topics with strong thoughts and controversial topics...and then runs away like a little boy with his ball (as previously mentioned).
*shrugs*
 
I didn't notice any personal jabs (and people disagreeing isn't a personal jab) but if there were any, you should flag their post and continue on.
 
David - You've already irrevocably left this discussion once, Page 5, post #41. Coming back specifically in order to leave again is a little unwise and doesn't lend you much credibility.

You're welcome to continue the debate and I wish you would. I honestly haven't seen anything personal against you, just disagreement with the points that you're proposing. That's not the same thing at all, as people have suggested to you in previous similar situations.

Even if you feel that some posts aren't worth replying to, there must still be plenty of points made by ultimately trustworthy people (Kathy's posts in particular?) that you might feel able to address.
 
I also want to mention that experienced herp keepers will have a different perception of how 'aggressive' a snake is. Once you've been around snakes for years and learned their behaviors, triggers, and defense mechanisms, you get a good feel for how you should handle and treat a particular animal. I know that I handle my Hondurans differently than my Corns, just because my Hondos behave differently. However, I wouldn't call them less tame than my Corns!

But I guarantee you if I handed a baby Hondo to a new snake keeper, they would wonder why I gave them this insane, flighty, spazzy animal. They would probably consider them to be more aggressive and wild than a veteran herper would. If they took that baby home, they would probably be a lot more hesitant to handle the animal, even for feeds and cleaning, and they would never become hand-tame. If I gave them a docile baby Corn, they would want to handle them more and more, leading to a very hand-tame animal that has it's tank cleaned more often. In cases like this, tame behavior begets tame behavior.

I'm also interested in the possible behavioral traits linked to color genes. I can attest that every animal I own that is het Sunkissed is a very high-strung, defensive, and sometimes aggressive snake. I started with 5 siblings from the same clutch, so wondered if they just happened to be a stressful bunch, but then later got 2 unrelated hets who act identical. Even after long-term handling, they will still tail-rattle, assume strike pose, and *ka-thunk* the sides of their tubs when I am near them.
 
I really have been very busy and haven't read through all the posts. I saw where people said I was "trolling" and trying to start arguments. The reptile industry is a unique one, and people like it because it is unique. When little Jimmy walks into a pet shop and sees Snake X. Let's say snake X by nature is very aggressive and requires very specific requirements. But breeders have bred snake X to be super tame. Jimmy handles snake X, and Snake X is just so nice Jimmy just takes Snake X home. Jimmy puts Snake X in an aquarium with aspen and a waterbowl. Snake X needs cypress, lots of hides and branches, and a very specific heat requirement. Snake X dies 3 days later. Jimmy bought Snake X because it was cute. Cornsnakes are docile and easy to keep, why do people have to continue to try and make snakes 100% to their standards. We already breed color morph. We have domesticated that part of the animal, but why do we feel as though we must continue to make these animals the way WE want them? I just feel like we expect these animals to breed for us, make us happy, make us money (what little money there is), make us this, and make us that. Notice that the word US shows up quite a bit. We demand these animals do these things, but why do we now have to make them behave because we can't have them biting! Do we even know that culling all these animals will have an effect? If you want a King Ratsnake and are to afraid of the bite, don't get one! Don't try and change the animal so that you benefit even more than we do from color morphs! That's my point. I don't want to continue the debate because I am coined a troll by people on this forum that have never met me! There's a guy that comes to local shows, he's a lurker on here. He keeps GTPs and Corns. We talk at every show and he says that he thinks it's so ridiculous that way people here act, he feels compelled to get on and ask how many of you have met me and know me! How many of you have met me? Maybe you saw me at a show and didn't approach me. I really don't know nor do I care, but the way I am treated here sucks. I don't get it on other forums and 90% of the threads I post here I post on every other forum I'm a member on. That's my point.
 
How many of you have met me?
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This is a global forum - I'm in the UK. Very few people here will have met each other. I can only think of one internet forum where I've ever physically met other members - that was because a mutual friend had passed away and there was a commemorative event. The internet can't be treated as though it's your local community - and you can't expect people to behave as though they know you and make allowances accordingly.

I'm sorry you feel hard-done by, but whatever percieved affront has been committed, there are still other good posts here that you could address. You could search for Kathy's responses by her User Name if you can't bear to read through the whole thread.

I made a point about humans having changed domesticated cattle from their natural food (woody scrub) to grass and hay, as it increases growth rates, milk and meat yield. Any farm animal has been selectively bred over thousands of years to make them more docile and easier to manage. I don't believe that selectively breeding reptiles is any different to this. I don't agree that making naturally aggressive reptiles more docile, will result in increased animal abuse.

Please note: I don't think you're a troll. I just hold opinions that are different to yours.
 
bitsy said:
This is a global forum - I'm in the UK. Very few people here will have met each other. I can only think of one internet forum where I've ever physically met other members - that was because a mutual friend had passed away and there was a commemorative event. The internet can't be treated as though it's your local community - and you can't expect people to behave as though they know you and make allowances accordingly.

I'm sorry you feel hard-done by, but whatever percieved affront has been committed, there are still other good posts here that you could address. You could search for Kathy's responses by her User Name if you can't bear to read through the whole thread.

I made a point about humans having changed domesticated cattle from their natural food (woody scrub) to grass and hay, as it increases growth rates, milk and meat yield. Any farm animal has been selectively bred over thousands of years to make them more docile and easier to manage. I don't believe that selectively breeding reptiles is any different to this. I don't agree that making naturally aggressive reptiles more docile, will result in increased animal abuse.

Please note: I don't think you're a troll. I just hold opinions that are different to yours.
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You're in the UK, I don't expect to meet you and I have no issue with you. Other people I do have an issue with.
 
Well that's good. I hope in that case you can feel able to discuss the points that I make and ignore those people you see as being abusing towards you (which I believe you should report to the Mods).
 
David, I had called it like I saw it. You start these threads, and when questioned about certain things in your mind set, you call us trolls. How am I supposed to react, roll over and take it from you? I think you are a very smart young man, you just need a little guidance. It is whether or not you decide to take that guidance that is the issue. I have not met you, but it is pretty easy to determine how a person is by the way they portray themselves. And, the constant "You haven't met me, so you cannot say what you think," attitude is a little old, and childish.
Like Bitsy said, I do not think you are a troll, you just tend to get upset when someone disagrees with you and then you start name calling.
I have stepped up to the plate for you plenty of times in the past, David. And there will be times in the future when I do so again. But your attitude towards members on this board, no matter who they are, and how they "attack" you, needs to be looked at long an hard. I know you are still a kid, heck, I am still a kid by some people's standards, but it is no excuse for you getting upset when someone asks you to prove what you are saying, with facts, not feelings.

There have been many posts in this thread to the contrary of what you started out saying, and you have been so engrossed with letting everyone know that you feel like you have been attacked, that you have not replied to any of those, only let us know that you will not be back to this thread, because you were called a "troll"...

I have even asked you a few questions, and have yet to see them answered.
 
bitsy said:
Well that's good. I hope in that case you can feel able to discuss the points that I make and ignore those people you see as being abusing towards you (which I believe you should report to the Mods).
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I may, I don't want to cause a stir and be "frivolous" :sidestep:
 
Outcast said:
David, I had called it like I saw it. You start these threads, and when questioned about certain things in your mind set, you call us trolls. How am I supposed to react, roll over and take it from you? I think you are a very smart young man, you just need a little guidance. It is whether or not you decide to take that guidance that is the issue. I have not met you, but it is pretty easy to determine how a person is by the way they portray themselves. And, the constant "You haven't met me, so you cannot say what you think," attitude is a little old, and childish.
Like Bitsy said, I do not think you are a troll, you just tend to get upset when someone disagrees with you and then you start name calling.
I have stepped up to the plate for you plenty of times in the past, David. And there will be times in the future when I do so again. But your attitude towards members on this board, no matter who they are, and how they "attack" you, needs to be looked at long an hard. I know you are still a kid, heck, I am still a kid by some people's standards, but it is no excuse for you getting upset when someone asks you to prove what you are saying, with facts, not feelings.

There have been many posts in this thread to the contrary of what you started out saying, and you have been so engrossed with letting everyone know that you feel like you have been attacked, that you have not replied to any of those, only let us know that you will not be back to this thread, because you were called a "troll"...

I have even asked you a few questions, and have yet to see them answered.
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Aaron, the reason I react the way I do is because my character is judged. PM me and I will tell you some of the terrible :realhot: I get in PM's and emails. I ask questions but when people start bringing up old stuff it upsets me. This was the last straw, I agree I did get nasty but it is because of the crap that has accumulated over the past few years. I enjoy a lot of the people here and I have met some. Everyone of them who actually came up and introduced themselves realized I'm not a troll, and I don't make threads like this to start a fight. As for your questions, PM me again I have been really busy between work, school, and my collection.
 
I don't understand why you are linking "snake X" traits to be BOTH non friendly AND with special needs that can't be met by beginners. That is true for some species, and not true for some other species. And even if "snake X" does need a different bedding, some extra hides, and specific heat, those requirements are certainly not beyond a DEDICATED newbie to provide. I just don't see this link of bad temper and delicate, special needs as being true MOST of the time - only occasionally.

And I don't understand why it is ethical to manipulate color and pattern, but not behavior. Several have already mentioned that newbies are more likely to be lured into buying colorful, beautiful animals than ugly ones, regardless of whether they are easy to keep. So by your logic, it should only be ethical to breed ugly versions of difficult to keep herps, in order to dissuade unqualified beginners from purchasing them.

And why do "we" do this? Because we are humans, and it seems to be in our nature to manipulate our environment to suit our needs. Sometimes that is really good, and sometimes it is disastrous. But that is what we do, and I doubt human nature is about to change anytime soon. BUT - if the bloodline of a particular species is designed to reside with humans, and meet human needs for pets or agriculture, then anything we can do to make it less stressful for the animal in question seems like a humane thing to do.

Please do NOT think your character is being assaulted, by me or by most (maybe ALL) of the other posters here. It is only your logic and the consistency of your arguments that is being questioned - not you personally. It is really helpful to learn good debating skills while still young. Such skills will be of great help to you in college and during your working years. But assuming the argument is against you personally instead of against your logic will hamper your ability to prove your point. If you would like to help change participants' minds, gain credibility, and increase your debating skills, please address any valid points in my posts, or others. Just present your argument against my logic in a reasonable way, as I tried to do. I am open to changing my mind if you can show you are logical and consistent in what you believe and why you believe it. I don't think you will be able to present enough reasons for me to change my mind, but I WILL look at your arguments with an open mind, if you present them well.

Please believe that I am trying to help you develop your communication skills, and I am not attacking you personally in any way.
 
I have no issue with you Kathy. It's the other people. I wasn't around when morphs started, I got in when morphs had been around. Personally, I think morphs aren't completely ethical. I breed them because they sell, and I like creating new things. But we have a chance to try and stop whats going on now. When you breed an animal and cull it's offspring to try and manipulate a gene that is very difficult to manipulate you aren't helping the hobby. How do we know that selectively breeding for niceness doesn't affect feeding or breeding? Color is one thing, but mental status is another. It's what's inside that counts right?
 
"...How do we know that selectively breeding for niceness doesn't affect feeding or breeding?..."

Actually, those are 2 other examples of "us" manipulating "what's inside" the animal for our benefit. For example, when I first starting breeding wild caught Miami phase corns MANY years ago, many of the babies insisted on starting on anoles. After many generations of selective breeding, I can say that Miami babies in my lines are no more likely to need anoles than other corns in my colony. And over the years, I (as most breeders) have certainly chosen to keep back the most productive breeders, increasing productivity over the generations. Poor producers were sold as pets, unless they had some one of a kind trait that needed to be perpetuated.

So, yes, productivity, feeding, personality, color, pattern, etc - all are subject to human manipulation in domestic animals, whether it is a dairy cow or a pet snake. I don't see how changing one aspect for our benefit is better or worse than changing others - unless, of course, it produces negative impacts to the animal, such as shortened noses on Pekingese dogs and Persian cats that make breathing difficult. That would be something I would consider unethical to produce.

However, if you personally find something unethical, but would breed it anyway just for money (as paltry as it is these days) or for the fun of creating it, I don't think that would be a good thing to do. It would make you feel guilty for doing so, even if most others don't find morph making to be unethical.
 
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