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The Domestication of Reptiles and it's Effect on the Reptile Hobby?

"Snake X has been around for 20 years, and snake X is bred in captivity and has very strict requirements, snake x is also very aggressive. Jimmy has snake X for 3 days before it died."

Now you are talking about a very specific species, although unnamed. It is aggressive, but delicate in requirements. But you have never shown why that specific species and its aggressive, but delicate nature, should be generalized to ALL species of snakes. Again, you seem to be assuming that all aggressive snakes have very specialized needs and beginners should be discouraged from owning them. And inferring that the inverse is true - that docile species are easy to keep and good for beginners to start with.
 
Carinata said:
Jimmy wouldn't have bought snake X if it had bitten him.
Click to expand...
This can certainly be true but it also depends on the species in question that is inappropriate for Jimmy to own, reliably biting everyone on the first time. Generally not even the nastiest snake never has a good day that it doesn't try to eat everyone.
I rescued a ribbon snake from the local Petco, they were feeding him the wrong type of fish, which was the only fish they carried and he had been there about 4 months. The employee's were visibly reluctant to handle him and I figured it was because they were wusses, they weren't the normal people in the reptile department. They got him out and I held him for 10, 15 mins making sure there wasn't anything majorly wrong with him and he was absolutely sweet, alert and moving all around like most ribbons and garters do but calm. Got him home and he was the biggest PITA I have ever dealt with, biting, musking and whipping his body anytime anything needed done with him or his cage. It even made it very difficult to get him switched to a better fish, as he was used to live and they were only available as F/T. He would stay in a spazzy state for like 30 mins after his cage was opened and the F/T fish would go bad in about 20 min.
 
Hello forum members. My '"real" name is Marcus. I have been lurking on here for quite a while, and I would like to thank many of you for the valuable information I have obtained from this forum. I do not typically post on online forums unless I have something constructive to add to the discussion. With respect to green tree pythons, I would think their high price, when compared to most other snakes, keeps the majority of uninformed buyers from getting one. I am sure there will always be the people who make impulse buys at shows (and pet stores). But I don't know how many people would just jump in and drop several hundred dollars on an animal before researching how to properly keep it. I am sure it has happened, and will happen in the future, but I would think that it does not happen too often. In any event, I do buy in to the theory that an uninformed buyer would be more likely to purchase a snake that is tame versus one that will try to bite whenever approached. LOL!

Personally, I don't know of any GTP breeders who just breed especially docile critters because they are hoping for a clutch of extremely tame babies. Typically, looks and genetics/bloodlines are the main factors in deciding which animals to pair up. However, I have heard of GTP breeders having reservations about breeding animals that are especially nasty, because they are concerned that the offspring will be nasty and difficult to work with. It seems that some people think nasty parents are more likely to produce nasty offspring, and especially tame parents are more likely to produce especially tame offspring. While I can buy in to that, as well, I believe those thoughts are mostly based on anecdotal evidence.

PS: I am the guy who keeps corns and GTPs/chondros that David referenced earlier in this thread. I know most of us will never have the opportunity to meet each other in person. I think many people who are critical of each other online would actually end up getting along really well. After all, we all share a passion for snakes, right! I actually seeked out David at the local show a while back because I wanted to let him know that I have seen many of his posts here and I am impressed at how he has grown, both as a person and as a reptile keeper, over time. I think most people who have been around here for a while would agree with me on that. Maybe we can try to remember how much David has grown, and appreciate that, instead of being quick to jump all over him when we disagree with him or find that he may not be exhibiting "adult" behavior. After all, I do not believe that David is even 18 years old yet.

If you ever have the chance to meet David, I am sure you will be impressed with his knowledge of herps and find that he is much more mature than he may appear, at times, on this board. I have seen David give out sound advice to people at shows and he does a great job working with everyone who stops by his employer's tables. While I do not agree with all of David's thoughts, I think he is a fine young man, and he adds a lot to this forum. If David was my kid, I would be very proud of him.
 
I'm lost here, David could you please explain why breeding for less aggression in snakes, specifically rather than colour or pattern morphs, is so bad, and examples of how widespread it is. Including any examples of 'tamer' snakes being subject to bad husbandry?
 
Carinata said:
I thought it was uncalled for and other members suggested that I report the posts. Can you lock this thread please? Or can I move it to classifieds and delete it? I just don't want to deal with the crap.
Click to expand...

Show me the rule prohibiting any statement you deem "uncalled for."

Lock the thread- are you kidding me? Rich has said time and time and time again that locking threads is not the way he likes to see discord dealt with.
 
"...Can you lock this thread please? Or can I move it to classifieds and delete it? I just don't want to deal with the crap."

Here is where I will offer personal opinion and feelings, rather than logic and fact.

I feel that your side of the argument is not supportable by facts, logic, and consistency of argument. That is why this is really frustrating for you. That is understandable. It is ok if you just say that NOT breeding for nice temperament is just your own feeling and opinion. Feelings don't have to be logical. But it is logical to accept them for what they are - just personal feelings that most others don't share. That is where the animal rights people are coming from. Most of their rhetoric is not logical, if you believe / feel the way most of us do about animals. But everyone is entitled to their own feelings, logical or not. However, if you do accept that your feeling / opinion is not really supportable by logic, then you can also accept that most other people will not agree with you. That is ok, too. We don't all have to agree with each other. I am willing to accept your feelings about the subject as long as you are willing to accept that I don't agree with it, and don't see the logic in it. Believe me, I have a few opinions that that are not totally logical, too. But that is what makes us human.
 
kathylove said:
BUT - if the bloodline of a particular species is designed to reside with humans, and meet human needs for pets or agriculture, then anything we can do to make it less stressful for the animal in question seems like a humane thing to do.
Click to expand...

Excellent point.
 
No matter how you look at it, having a more tame animal is better for the reptile industry overall. Even if an idiot kid buys the harder to keep GTP that is tame and it dies because he didn't care for it right. Why? Because even if it dies, mom isn't going to go hit the media saying how snakes should not be kept as pets because they are dangerous if her son were to have taken a nasty bite and bled all over the place from it. She will be pissed she spent so much money on a pet her kid did not know how to take care of, but she can only blame herself and her kid for that.

Kinda like the pet gold fish market, how many of those die due to improper care? Or beta fish? Alot less money lost on it if it does die, but you dont hear people yelling how dangerous they are cause they bit their child. So there is no drama there for the media to take hold of and call for bans from senators and congressmen. It's just a bunch of folks who dont know how to care for their animal and they can only blame themselves for that. Do you want a pet dog that bites? Or one that doesn't? Some dogs are harder to care for than others, but if those tougher to care for dogs bit people, there would be calls everywhere to have them banned. Pit Bulls much?

So the logic of keeping certain snakes nasty in nature if there is a possible way to breed for a better displacement safely, clearly does not make sense as nicer pet snakes benefit all of us across the hobby as a whole. And as far as health problems go with trying to breed the tame animals rather than the nasty ones, I haven't seen anywhere where there is an issue of health nor anyone else thus far. And this you take issue with compared to issues that have derived from the selective breeding for color and pattern that you admit to partaking in yourself? It seriously seems like you are just trying to make yourself sound cool or better and mighty (disguised as a deep concern for the hobby through big words and talk) because you have snakes that tend to bite and take delicate care, when there is really just an actual intent to indirectly imply to all that you are "cool" and more of a man or something compared to those with snakes that don't bite and are less maintenance. Hate to say it but that's how all of your postings seem to come off whenever I read them.
 
melikeysnakee said:
Hello forum members. My '"real" name is Marcus. I have been lurking on here for quite a while, and I would like to thank many of you for the valuable information I have obtained from this forum. I do not typically post on online forums unless I have something constructive to add to the discussion. With respect to green tree pythons, I would think their high price, when compared to most other snakes, keeps the majority of uninformed buyers from getting one. I am sure there will always be the people who make impulse buys at shows (and pet stores). But I don't know how many people would just jump in and drop several hundred dollars on an animal before researching how to properly keep it. I am sure it has happened, and will happen in the future, but I would think that it does not happen too often. In any event, I do buy in to the theory that an uninformed buyer would be more likely to purchase a snake that is tame versus one that will try to bite whenever approached. LOL!

Personally, I don't know of any GTP breeders who just breed especially docile critters because they are hoping for a clutch of extremely tame babies. Typically, looks and genetics/bloodlines are the main factors in deciding which animals to pair up. However, I have heard of GTP breeders having reservations about breeding animals that are especially nasty, because they are concerned that the offspring will be nasty and difficult to work with. It seems that some people think nasty parents are more likely to produce nasty offspring, and especially tame parents are more likely to produce especially tame offspring. While I can buy in to that, as well, I believe those thoughts are mostly based on anecdotal evidence.

PS: I am the guy who keeps corns and GTPs/chondros that David referenced earlier in this thread. I know most of us will never have the opportunity to meet each other in person. I think many people who are critical of each other online would actually end up getting along really well. After all, we all share a passion for snakes, right! I actually seeked out David at the local show a while back because I wanted to let him know that I have seen many of his posts here and I am impressed at how he has grown, both as a person and as a reptile keeper, over time. I think most people who have been around here for a while would agree with me on that. Maybe we can try to remember how much David has grown, and appreciate that, instead of being quick to jump all over him when we disagree with him or find that he may not be exhibiting "adult" behavior. After all, I do not believe that David is even 18 years old yet.

If you ever have the chance to meet David, I am sure you will be impressed with his knowledge of herps and find that he is much more mature than he may appear, at times, on this board. I have seen David give out sound advice to people at shows and he does a great job working with everyone who stops by his employer's tables. While I do not agree with all of David's thoughts, I think he is a fine young man, and he adds a lot to this forum. If David was my kid, I would be very proud of him.
Click to expand...
How lovely that your first post is in support of your friend. Personally I extend David as much leeway as I do my own boys. Their beliefs are certainly not the same as mine in all areas and we enjoy very lively debates in which we often agree to disagree, whether the subject is spiritual beliefs, vegetarianism, political issues, animal husbandry, or whatever. If one of my boys makes an assertion, they either support it with examples, or as Kathy referred to, will say something like 'this is just my opinion', as do I. I find it makes growing on 3 young men who are close in age much less stressful than emotive arguments would be.
 
So why is having a 'tame' GTP such a no no...
DSC_0010.JPG

I think that just breeding and keeping reptiles will calm them down, much the same way keeping and breeding domestic dogs has...
And it hasn't interfered much with their wild instincts...
BTW... This GTP wasn't bred to be kissable.... It just happened that way... Is that a bad thing?
 
That is classic! That reminds me of when I was at a breeder's place checking out chondros and was warned to "just do not put your (my) face too close" to one of the critters I was checking out. A good bite from a GTP is sure to draw lots of blood!
 
Hoping that a 'mean' animal will keep people from impulse buying doesn't work when one of the main reasons people impulse buy exotics is BECAUSE they are "wild" and "mean" and they can have their buddies come over and film it eating live kittens or something ridiculous.
 
diamondlil said:
I'm lost here, David could you please explain why breeding for less aggression in snakes, specifically rather than colour or pattern morphs, is so bad, and examples of how widespread it is. Including any examples of 'tamer' snakes being subject to bad husbandry?
Click to expand...

I also would like to know the specifics of the reasoning of this. With real species as examples please-- the Snake X thing confuses me (and it's Friday, so my brain power is about tapped out).

Karoni said:
Excellent point.
Click to expand...

I concur. Kathy always has great points.

Lovin2act said:
No matter how you look at it, having a more tame animal is better for the reptile industry overall. Even if an idiot kid buys the harder to keep GTP that is tame and it dies because he didn't care for it right. Why? Because even if it dies, mom isn't going to go hit the media saying how snakes should not be kept as pets because they are dangerous if her son were to have taken a nasty bite and bled all over the place from it. She will be pissed she spent so much money on a pet her kid did not know how to take care of, but she can only blame herself and her kid for that.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. No matter how you shake it, it is better. It's not so much the neglect of a single pet corn that's catching media headlines these days. It's incidents of aggression being directed at owners, relatives and friends. We as reptile keepers abhor the neglect of pet reptiles, but if we're being honest... it would be better for a herp to die of negligent care than to seriously injure someone and be euthanized. Lesser of two evils....

In any event, we're forgetting that reptiles in general require VERY specialized care. Even corns, which seems so simple and basic to us, can be completely mind-boggling for newbies. How many times do we get new owners on here who don't know anything about heating requirements or how to meet them? How many times to Beardie forums get people who haven't a clue how to give a lizard UV light or why it's important??

Breeding burms for temperament may mean that the burms in captivity receive better care overall, and maybe less injuries would be reported. As far as someone not buying snake X because it bit him at the store... Malakai the burm didn't even attempt to bite Tara or myself in the first month we had him. He bit her pretty good the other day and acted aggressively again when we got him out a week later. It's not looking good for him. Aggressive, big snakes have no place in the wider human society. Not saying there aren't folks who work with them and tolerate their antics... but for most of us who keep our snakes as pets in our home, it's not a good thing.
 
Lovin2act said:
No matter how you look at it, having a more tame animal is better for the reptile industry overall. Even if an idiot kid buys the harder to keep GTP that is tame and it dies because he didn't care for it right. Why? Because even if it dies, mom isn't going to go hit the media saying how snakes should not be kept as pets because they are dangerous if her son were to have taken a nasty bite and bled all over the place from it. She will be pissed she spent so much money on a pet her kid did not know how to take care of, but she can only blame herself and her kid for that.

Kinda like the pet gold fish market, how many of those die due to improper care? Or beta fish? Alot less money lost on it if it does die, but you dont hear people yelling how dangerous they are cause they bit their child. So there is no drama there for the media to take hold of and call for bans from senators and congressmen. It's just a bunch of folks who dont know how to care for their animal and they can only blame themselves for that. Do you want a pet dog that bites? Or one that doesn't? Some dogs are harder to care for than others, but if those tougher to care for dogs bit people, there would be calls everywhere to have them banned. Pit Bulls much?

So the logic of keeping certain snakes nasty in nature if there is a possible way to breed for a better displacement safely, clearly does not make sense as nicer pet snakes benefit all of us across the hobby as a whole. And as far as health problems go with trying to breed the tame animals rather than the nasty ones, I haven't seen anywhere where there is an issue of health nor anyone else thus far. And this you take issue with compared to issues that have derived from the selective breeding for color and pattern that you admit to partaking in yourself? It seriously seems like you are just trying to make yourself sound cool or better and mighty (disguised as a deep concern for the hobby through big words and talk) because you have snakes that tend to bite and take delicate care, when there is really just an actual intent to indirectly imply to all that you are "cool" and more of a man or something compared to those with snakes that don't bite and are less maintenance. Hate to say it but that's how all of your postings seem to come off whenever I read them.
Click to expand...


This is the impression I get as well......
 
If anyone has even the slightest moral problem with the breeding of morphs, then they shouldn't be breeding. Especially if the only reason they breed morphs is to make money!
 
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