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The Domestication of Reptiles and it's Effect on the Reptile Hobby?

"...How do we know that selectively breeding for niceness doesn't affect feeding or breeding?..."

Actually, those are 2 other examples of "us" manipulating "what's inside" the animal for our benefit. For example, when I first starting breeding wild caught Miami phase corns MANY years ago, many of the babies insisted on starting on anoles. After many generations of selective breeding, I can say that Miami babies in my lines are no more likely to need anoles than other corns in my colony. And over the years, I (as most breeders) have certainly chosen to keep back the most productive breeders, increasing productivity over the generations. Poor producers were sold as pets, unless they had some one of a kind trait that needed to be perpetuated.

So, yes, productivity, feeding, personality, color, pattern, etc - all are subject to human manipulation in domestic animals, whether it is a dairy cow or a pet snake. I don't see how changing one aspect for our benefit is better or worse than changing others - unless, of course, it produces negative impacts to the animal, such as shortened noses on Pekingese dogs and Persian cats that make breathing difficult. That would be something I would consider unethical to produce.

However, if you personally find something unethical, but would breed it anyway just for money (as paltry as it is these days) or for the fun of creating it, I don't think that would be a good thing to do. It would make you feel guilty for doing so, even if most others don't find morph making to be unethical.

I don't feel guilty. It's not that I see it as unethical, but more of a touchy thing. After breeding animals back and back and back to their great grandmothers. How do we know a "nicer" snake won't have difficulty with fertility?
 
Sometimes certain pairings DO produce problems, whether in fertility or some other area, such as kinks, etc. In that case, I outcross and avoid producing more of the same. The early bloodreds were an example of poor fertility, and especially, difficult to start babies. But that problem arose out of inbreeding to produce a color and pattern look, not to produce anything to do with personality. But after a few generations of attention to results, bloodreds do not have any more problems with fertility or poor starting babies than any other morph. So I don't see how breeding for personality traits differs from breeding for physical looks in likelihood of producing unwanted results.
 
You don't breed them 'back and back' to their parents.

IF I were ever wealthy enough to undertake this route properly, I'd likely start with 10 as non-related 'nice' corns as I could, and have 5 1.1 pairings. I'd rotate parents, and keep back the single 'nicest' of the offspring from each clutch, the one that does not rattle, does not coil, does not triangle-head, and has a good feed response. By the end of a full cycling of parents, I would have 25 holdbacks, many of whom would still be unrelated, and at worst half-siblings. Queue up rotations of those holdbacks, once again keeping only the nicest. Continue this and you'll probably start seeing consistent results in 5 or 6 generations.

I'm curious though: If you do not consider morphs to be completely ethical, why do you partake in an unethical undertaking? Especially just because you can sell them? And you say you 'like creating things'... which is the entire reason behind morphs currently. We 'like seeing what pops up.'

Regarding pretty and inappropriate care: This even happens with cornsnakes. You see newbies putting them on sand. Being nice or not is not going to change the fact that some people are incredibly ignorant and should not own pets. And if you're worried about the snake, well, if you sell tame ones simply asking 'what sort of set up do you plan for this kiddo' would weed out most of the morons. So there we go, that complaint is now neatly countered.
 
Not unethical but overdone. That's why I try and breed as much new blood as I can into my geckos. Inbreeding happens which is why I have geckos from huge breeders with under bites. F74 animals are just not healthy and that's what I feel will happen with this nice snake breeding process.
 
I would think that breeding solely for "nice" healthy snakes rather than a single recessive gene would be less likely to require inbreeding. You can find a "nice" snake from all kinds of lines, that has good feeding response and fertility if you aren't also trying to match up hets.
 
David....why do your posts always become about you and not about the topic you started?


Anyway...breeding for temperment is a good thing as long as you are watching the other issues as well.

If you think breeding morphs is unethical and you are only doing it because they sell...
THEN Stop breeding them!!! Going against your own code of ethics just for money is very unethical to yourself.

If you don't wish to breed for temper...then don't. What other's breed for is frankly none of your business. It's not ruining the industry because VERY VERY few people are doing it. So don't buy a ATB from MegF....and don't buy a corn from Chip...and it will be fine!

And STOP taking everything so darn personally!
 
But now we are talking about inbreeding and inattention to the results it can cause - good or bad. Most selective breeding and inbreeding is done for physical results such as color and pattern, or sometimes, for good productivity results. I doubt that nearly as many breeders choose for nice personality as for those traits. Maybe they will in the future.

But I still don't see why you think that breeding for personality traits is more likely to cause problems than selectively breeding for physical traits - whether through extensive inbreeding or not. Many breeders have already subjected various lines to intensive selection for productivity or color and pattern traits. Unless some super docile or super vicious animals were over represented in the lines (as may be the case in some of my okeetees), I don't see that breeding for one trait automatically caused a problem with another, unrelated trait. It could be true, of course. But I haven't seen any evidence of it, unless the vicious streak of sunkissed corns holds true after more outcrossing.
 
When little Jimmy walks into a pet shop and sees Snake X. Let's say snake X by nature is very aggressive and requires very specific requirements. But breeders have bred snake X to be super tame. Jimmy handles snake X, and Snake X is just so nice Jimmy just takes Snake X home. Jimmy puts Snake X in an aquarium with aspen and a waterbowl. Snake X needs cypress, lots of hides and branches, and a very specific heat requirement. Snake X dies 3 days later. Jimmy bought Snake X because it was cute.

What does temperment have to do with it? Jimmy could have just as easily bought a chameleon, or a sulcata, or whatever. The reptile-buying public needs avoid impulse buys in general. A snake having a nasty temperment doesn't prevent that.
 
David....why do your posts always become about you and not about the topic you started?


Anyway...breeding for temperment is a good thing as long as you are watching the other issues as well.

If you think breeding morphs is unethical and you are only doing it because they sell...
THEN Stop breeding them!!! Going against your own code of ethics just for money is very unethical to yourself.

If you don't wish to breed for temper...then don't. What other's breed for is frankly none of your business. It's not ruining the industry because VERY VERY few people are doing it. So don't buy a ATB from MegF....and don't buy a corn from Chip...and it will be fine!

And STOP taking everything so darn personally!

:blowup: Your logic goes in one ear and out the other. I actually used to value your opinion. Not anymore! The ignore function works well.
 
What does temperment have to do with it? Jimmy could have just as easily bought a chameleon, or a sulcata, or whatever. The reptile-buying public needs avoid impulse buys in general. A snake having a nasty temperment doesn't prevent that.

Jimmy wouldn't have bought snake X if it had bitten him.
 
Gosh David...To me saying that we are domesticating reptiles by breeding for temperment and other factors (like say small retics) ...I feel as if that is putting breeders into a box. It seems to be that you wish to be in a field. To have the "wild" side that does not confine you into such square demensions.
I think perhaps I will stick with calm snakes I can enjoy by handling them...put me in a box if you like. But boxes have air conditioning and cable.
Fields have mosquitoes.

David, can you explain to me why you feel this post is rude? I certainly wouldn't call it abusive or inflammatory...You are right to be concerned about frivolous post reporting.
 
Right, but Jimmy could have bought an equally fragile or intensive care animal that _didn't_ bite him.
 
David, can you explain to me why you feel this post is rude? I certainly wouldn't call it abusive or inflammatory...You are right to be concerned about frivolous post reporting.

I thought it was uncalled for and other members suggested that I report the posts. Can you lock this thread please? Or can I move it to classifieds and delete it? I just don't want to deal with the crap.
 
Snake X could very easily have been a corn. I have seen some very bitey corns that I wouldn't have wanted to deal with myself. Some people. even newbies dont' mind trying to tame a snake. So, to say Jimmy wouldn't have bought snake X if it had bitten I think is a bit wrong. Also, I think every snake has special requirements, even corns. It's upto the person buying said snake to do their research before aquiring any animal.
 
Snake X could very easily have been a corn. I have seen some very bitey corns that I wouldn't have wanted to deal with myself. Some people. even newbies dont' mind trying to tame a snake. So, to say Jimmy wouldn't have bought snake X if it had bitten I think is a bit wrong. Also, I think every snake has special requirements, even corns. It's upto the person buying said snake to do their research before aquiring any animal.

Snake X is snake X, not a cornsnake. New species!
 
Snake X is snake X, not a cornsnake. New species!

If its a new species, how can anyone be sure of its care requirements. I'm sure when each species of snake was first taken into captivity there was a certain amount of trial and error to figure out just what care that species needed to thrive.
So, Jimmy got snake X and is now going to hopefully figure out the optimal habitat for the snake and have a happy, tame snake in time.
 
"Jimmy wouldn't have bought snake X if it had bitten him."

Maybe. Or maybe it wouldn't have bitten him at the store - only when he got home. That would be worse. I have had people email me that the cute baby corn they bought at the pet shop started striking at them when they got home, and now they are scared to do anything with it at all. And that is just a corn that will probably outgrow its fear! They may just neglect it out of fear. But they often take it back to the store, and never get another pet reptile. They may even become supporters of the AR agenda that says reptiles don't make good pets, and should be banned.

OR - snake X bit Jimmy, so he bought a beautiful baby chameleon instead. Not a good alternative!

So I still don't see how mean snakes help anyone - including the snake itself.
 
If its a new species, how can anyone be sure of its care requirements. I'm sure when each species of snake was first taken into captivity there was a certain amount of trial and error to figure out just what care that species needed to thrive.
So, Jimmy got snake X and is now going to hopefully figure out the optimal habitat for the snake and have a happy, tame snake in time.

Snake X has been around for 20 years, and snake X is bred in captivity and has very strict requirements, snake x is also very aggressive. Jimmy has snake X for 3 days before it died.
 
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