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The Domestication of Reptiles and it's Effect on the Reptile Hobby?

I'm not goign to even try anymore. I really tried to have a decent discussion with the people here. Not some trolling adventure. Bye
 
Carinata said:
I'm not goign to even try anymore. I really tried to have a decent discussion with the people here. Not some trolling adventure. Bye
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Kinda like the kid who takes his ball and goes home because he cant play as well as the others? :shrugs:
 
I don't see why we can't still talk about it even if OP doesn't want to.

Disposition and temperament are actually one of the last things I consider when choosing what to hold back. I want the best eaters, of the target morph, with the nicest color and pattern, biggest size and then disposition - that is how I prioritize. However it would be neat to see someone try for super tame corns :)
 
I don't understand...

and I am a bit disappointed. I thought everyone was having a pretty even handed and logical discussion. I think that many have acknowledged your point of view, and have considered it. But most or all disagree, and have stated why. To me, that is a great debate. Now it is your turn to acknowledge and consider what others have put forth. Perhaps their reasoning will cause you to change your mind - perhaps not. But a good debate is not about everyone agreeing with each other. That would not be a debate at all, lol! It is about posting logical reasons for your viewpoint, with examples or proof, if available. Then everyone involved should consider the other perspective, and decide if there is any merit in something they hadn't thought of previously. After careful consideration, all participants are free to change their minds - or not. To me, conversation and consideration such as the above constitutes a successful debate thread - not getting everyone to agree with each other, or the original poster. So I don't understand why you are upset and want to leave.
 
Corn Snakes are very much like cats in disposition just a heck of a lot quieter lol:rofl: they let you play with them when they want to, they tell you when they don't by trying to shake, rattle and strike. And as long as there needs are met they seem content to do their own thing. :rofl:
 
Carinata said:
I'm not goign to even try anymore. I really tried to have a decent discussion with the people here. Not some trolling adventure. Bye
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I was not trolling, I was pointing out my observation, and asking you about your observations, I want to see numbers.

It seems as though every time someone disagrees with you, it is an attack on your character, and you play the victim. I have seen many very well thought out responses from you in the past, and I know you are above the petty "I don't wanna play with you anymore" type of response, so please. Enlighten us on where you have noticed these trends.
 
kathylove said:
and I am a bit disappointed. I thought everyone was having a pretty even handed and logical discussion. I think that many have acknowledged your point of view, and have considered it. But most or all disagree, and have stated why. To me, that is a great debate. Now it is your turn to acknowledge and consider what others have put forth. Perhaps their reasoning will cause you to change your mind - perhaps not. But a good debate is not about everyone agreeing with each other. That would not be a debate at all, lol! It is about posting logical reasons for your viewpoint, with examples or proof, if available. Then everyone involved should consider the other perspective, and decide if there is any merit in something they hadn't thought of previously. After careful consideration, all participants are free to change their minds - or not. To me, conversation and consideration such as the above constitutes a successful debate thread - not getting everyone to agree with each other, or the original poster. So I don't understand why you are upset and want to leave.
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100% agree. One moment he uses his big game talk to impress the masses, but if anyone has a differing opinion, it's back to temper tantrums.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathylove
and I am a bit disappointed. I thought everyone was having a pretty even handed and logical discussion. I think that many have acknowledged your point of view, and have considered it. But most or all disagree, and have stated why. To me, that is a great debate. Now it is your turn to acknowledge and consider what others have put forth. Perhaps their reasoning will cause you to change your mind - perhaps not. But a good debate is not about everyone agreeing with each other. That would not be a debate at all, lol! It is about posting logical reasons for your viewpoint, with examples or proof, if available. Then everyone involved should consider the other perspective, and decide if there is any merit in something they hadn't thought of previously. After careful consideration, all participants are free to change their minds - or not. To me, conversation and consideration such as the above constitutes a successful debate thread - not getting everyone to agree with each other, or the original poster. So I don't understand why you are upset and want to leave.


100% agree. One moment he uses his big game talk to impress the masses, but if anyone has a differing opinion, it's back to temper tantrums.
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I agree as well. I was thinking this discussion thread was a good read and gave me lots to think about as a new person to the forum and to the addiction :)
 
kathylove said:
Now it is your turn to acknowledge and consider what others have put forth. Perhaps their reasoning will cause you to change your mind - perhaps not. But a good debate is not about everyone agreeing with each other. That would not be a debate at all...Then everyone involved should consider the other perspective, and decide if there is any merit in something they hadn't thought of previously. After careful consideration, all participants are free to change their minds - or not.
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Kathy, I loved your post. I think great debates are about people sharing their opinions and others considering what has been said. Perhaps their mind will be changed, perhaps not. What troubles me is that, so often, "debates" are nothing more than people arguing and trying to get the other person to change their mind. So often, it doesn't seem like anyone is really considering the other person's perspective.

That's why, when I addressed Carinata, I tried to get more info so that I could better understand it from his perspective. My mind is richer when I understand how other people see things, whether or not I agree with them.

Sorry for hijacking the tread.
:-offtopic
 
Kronos said:
Is there any real evidence that you can select for temperament within a species? I haven't seen any, but if there is some evidence out there, I would like to see it. Corn snakes, as a species, tend to be fairly docile and adapt to captivity very well. But if you breed less docile individuals to each other, will that produce predominantly offspring that will grow up to be less docile adults? I doubt there's a good way to tell this for sure. If so, I would think somone would have been able to create racers and whipsnakes that would do well in captivity. I think this thread is based on some faulty assumptions. But, as usual, if there's any real, science based evidence out there, I would like to hear about it.
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Cheers to Kronos! I'm glad to see there are still some skeptics out there when it comes to such questions. It is easy for anyone to go off on an opinion about a process (eg. domestication) without any true knowledge about the subject. The only way to strengthen your case is with scientific-based evidence . "Playing God" is probably the worst defense for such matters as it does not help the progression of truth/discussion to such questions about natural or artificial selection. It is so easy to make anyone a hypocrite that is a firm believer they themselves don't "play god". The fact is artificial selection has allowed enthusiasts to create an awesome array of different morphs of snakes that wouldn't survive if natural selection was in control. It shows the spectacular array of genetic variation. How random mutation can cause this variation. How evolution works. Doesn't everyone want to learn more?!? Behavioral genetics is a fascinating topic and I would encourage anyone to learn more. Those that fight the system (think it is playing god and want nothing to do with it) retard such research and knowledge to be had by all.

I am skeptical about the tameness of corn snakes and how it would influence their ability to survive if released. Obviously the only ones that would have a chance are those morphs close to the natural colors; however, there is no evidence that captive bred snakes could NOT survive in the wild. There is evidence to support otherwise: pythons and boas in Florida. Snake behavior has to be harder to measure than mammals quantitatively and qualitatively.

Shiari said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

Absolutely. Very famous and ongoing study. Started with wild foxes and in 40 years, now has dog-tame ones.... and they are starting to look more like dogs too! And that's just as a natural by product of selecting for behaviour.


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Cheers to Shiari too! This type of follow up to Kronos actually progresses the discussion. The fox study is a classic!

My mind can be easily changed with the arrival of evidence (the theme of my thesis). I feel like a bulldog but seriously a case is much stronger if supported by evidence NOT opinion. Unfortunately, my rant may fall on deaf ears...at least I feel better.
 
"...I think great debates are about people sharing their opinions and others considering what has been said. Perhaps their mind will be changed, perhaps not. What troubles me is that, so often, "debates" are nothing more than people arguing and trying to get the other person to change their mind. So often, it doesn't seem like anyone is really considering the other person's perspective.

... My mind is richer when I understand how other people see things, whether or not I agree with them."

My thoughts exactly! I feel I am enriched by being led to think about things I may not have thought of before, or in ways I didn't previously consider. That is not to say I will definitely change my mind! I may think about the new info and perspective offered, and decide my previous opinion is still the correct one. In fact, that happens often. But that doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the differing viewpoints presented - IF presented well and without hostility!

It is unfortunate that many, many people are unable to separate their emotions or passion from their logical arguments. I am sometimes a victim of this myself, while talking to people in person or on the phone. But that is why I like written commentary. It allows me the time to carefully think about what is being offered, and to withdraw it before the whole world sees it, if needed. These posts may last longer than I do, and become my legacy, lol! Thank goodness for that ability to edit and delete!
 
You know, I first heard about the fox study about a year ago. Apparently a guy was trying to get licensed by the US and Russian authorities/govt. to be able to import those little guys into the US and start selling them as pets.
I for one believe that snakes can be selectively bred for temperament, but I would think that it could be something along the lines of hogs. What is it, 3 weeks in the wild before a hog starts to look wild again? I cannot remember and do not have the time to look it up.
 
The silver fox study is amazing, I particularly like that selecting for tameness randomly threw morphic variations such as floppy ears, curly tails and changes in coat colour that weren't actually selected for.
Which makes me wonder...........the 'tude of sunkissed corns, could that be a similar process, where the same genetics that were selected to give such a lovely morph to look at also randomly produced their 'interesting' temperements?
Personally I've found that my bitiest little hatelings tend to be the best feeders.
 
diamondlil said:
Personally I've found that my bitiest little hatelings tend to be the best feeders.
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Same here... and I have raised a couple of them that did NOT outgrow their bitiness or flightiness. So I now have a couple of adults that are harder to handle and I would say something, were I to sell them, about how I did not think they were going to make the best pets. Some people may not mind having a snake that is agro but I think most people would rather have one they can handle, watch TV with, show their friends wihout having to worry the snake will bite. Especially new keepers who might feel nervous handling snakes to begin with.
 
ghosthousecorns said:
Same here... and I have raised a couple of them that did NOT outgrow their bitiness or flightiness. So I now have a couple of adults that are harder to handle and I would say something, were I to sell them, about how I did not think they were going to make the best pets. Some people may not mind having a snake that is agro but I think most people would rather have one they can handle, watch TV with, show their friends wihout having to worry the snake will bite. Especially new keepers who might feel nervous handling snakes to begin with.
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Yep, my pair from Vinman are the nastiest corns I've got, I love them but I'm sporting the results of yesterdays feeding session when Polly connected 7 times in quick succession, with 3 of the bites leaving beautiful corn-mouth bite patterns on my wrist and hand. Pearl is a reliable biter too, she'd never make a pet owner happy if they expected a docile, handleable snake as she always strikes for me before the mouse unless she's really hungry.
 
I know I have no use for an aggressive snake that doesn't have a place in my breeding plans. Mr. Ruby- meaning you!
 
Nanci said:
Wow, I was unaware of the fox study.
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You're going to love it Nanci! They proved the genetic link by swapping 'tame' and 'fierce' embryos and showing that the behaviour of the fox that whelped the cubs didn't change the expected behaviours
 
Nanci said:
I know I have no use for an aggressive snake that doesn't have a place in my breeding plans. Mr. Ruby- meaning you!
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I do, because Skeeter and Mr Bonney, my king and ratsnake are 'just' pets, but they are bitey, musky beasts! I'd feel differently if they were going to grow to giant proportions, but bites are just part of owning snakes for me. I prefer watching them to handling them, so they suit me.
 
Carinata said:
The immaturity some of the people who are posting prove to me I can't selectively try and have a discussion. Small retics are fine, certain NATURAL locals are smaller. My point is a lot of animals that are docile by nature ten to have fairly easy care. Many that are more nervous have more difficult to maintain. If we make the more difficult species more appealing by breeding a natural instinct out of them they become more appealing for the first time snake keeper to buy but the other requirements are still there and those may be ignored because the snake is cute and cuddly so people buy it anyway without knowledge of the species. I don't want to continue this if people are going to make personal jabs, accusations and low-blows. It's not worth my time to try and have a discussion with a forum that for some reason cannot just talk but has to drag personal conflict into the simple discussion of our hobby.
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Basically, you're accusing breeders of producing 'unnaturally docile' (this does not even make sense!) and then criticizing them for selling these animals to irresponsible owners who will mistreat them out of ignorance.

First, snakes are not docile creatures. They are feral, and if they are ever to become so domestic as dogs and cats, this will take hundreds, even thousands of years of breeding and domestication. Sure, there might be 'calmer' species, who appear friendly and cuddly, but are really just reluctant to engage in defensive behavior, even though the animal might be stressed nonetheless. This is a learned trait... snakes in captivity learn that defensive behavior is not necessary through constant handling and care, because of an absence of threat or predation. Thus, they acclimate well to the captive lifestyle.

I do agree, as most will, that certain species, like GTP, are not beginner species, not just because of their temperament, but also because of their high maintenance outside of their natural habitats and so forth. But in any case, having any pet requires a great deal of responsibility, part of which is understanding its needs. I think most breeders (especially here) have good judgment about who they are selling their animals to; they wouldn't carelessly sell them off to anyone, though they may assume (as part of common courtesy) that most people are decent and capable of caring for the animal(s). If you're going to point the finger at anyone here, it should be at the foolish owners who don't know how to take care of their GTPs, who they know relatively little about. I think if you're going to make a case out of this, you should pursue that, specifically. Maybe if there is as much mistreatment among owners as you seem to claim, that will open a few eyes and breeders will be more selective about who they sell to. On the other hand, it seems like you're just generalizing here because you don't like how certain species have become popular/trendy.

Anyway, I thought I'd link you up with an earlier thread I made about moral conflicts and breeding that remained pretty civil throughout the debate. Maybe just reading through will help you understand how these kinds of topics are debated and remain user-friendly.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=108707
 
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