The US flag is offensive ...

[vetusvates]

I'm not saying plantations exist today, I'm saying all of the free labor from slaves, that gave slave owners wealth and land, like tobacco farms, cotton farms, etc.. that wealth, and business wealth is past down through generations. So why shouldn't minorities be entitled to some forms of inherited wealth, or job opportunity, like affirmative action, or other benefits offered.

Michael, I do not begrudge minorities' benefits.
But this tack, as an argument to substantiate it, is weak. I really think "wealth, and business wealth...passed down through generations" is of a much lower incidence of occurrence, more of the stuff novels and TV shows are made of. Not nearly the widespread anglo-saxon conspiratorial hoarding and sequestration of wealth you are suggesting.

 

[Michael823]

Michael, I do not begrudge minorities' benefits.
But this tack, as an argument to substantiate it, is weak. I really think "wealth, and business wealth...passed down through generations" is of a much lower incidence of occurrence, more of the stuff novels and TV shows are made of. Not nearly the widespread anglo-saxon conspiratorial hoarding and sequestration of wealth you are suggesting.

In one way or another slavery is the reasoning for alot of today's inequality, and that's why there is still a large desparity for minorities. I don't consider opportunities that are exclusive to minorities handouts for this reason, and I believe things like affirmative don't even begin to level the playing field, so why do people keep acting like it's somehow easier to be a minority.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Also robbie, you never point fingers, and share your opinions freely, so I very much respect that about you. But affirmative action shouldn't be removed, and you make it sound like somehow college is an easier achievement for minorities. My aunt is African American, and grew up in a prodominantly white area of America, and affirmative action was a huge ground for her to go to college. She deserved every bit of assistance coming from where she did, and these organizations only aim to balance inequality. The percentages of minorities are still very low compared to the overall population, and sometimes people need that boost to help them rise beyond a situation. Just because racism isn't as physical as it was, people overlook it. But it's there, and still prevents certain groups of people from equality.

Yes, I will agree that when it was FIRST introduced, it was needed. But now? Now it's just plain ridiculous. Slavery ended in 1865. That's almost 200 years ago. I very highly doubt that anyone has a father or grandfather that was a slave. It's time for the African American minorities to stop playing the slave card. It's gotten them a LOT of hand outs from the descendants of plantation owners, cotton farmers, tobacco farmers, etc. They called it "reparations". They've already been paid. Why do we have to keep paying? If you truly want equality, make everyone truly equal. Do job and college interviews over the phone, and remove the "race and ethnicity" question on all applications. America has progressed quite a bit since segregation and slavery, and if a minority truly DESERVES the job, they can have it. I'm just sick and tired of them getting it because there's a quota of diversity that the employers need to fill.

In one way or another slavery is the reasoning for alot of today's inequality, and that's why there is still a large desparity for minorities. I don't consider opportunities that are exclusive to minorities handouts for this reason, and I believe things like affirmative don't even begin to level the playing field, so why do people keep acting like it's somehow easier to be a minority.

Please see bolded section in previous paragraph.

 

[Michael823]

Vetusvestes, you are by far one of the more educated people on this site, and I always enjoy your posts. If I sound like I'm reaching here, I apologize. This whole discussion is really wearing on me, and I hate feeling like I'm the only one who actually thinks about equality in America. I may not have the historical knowledge that you do, so my posts aren't as eloquent as I'd like, but I really do try to speak from my heart about these issues. But that tends to cause more debates than answers, but oh well. I'm just trying to defend equality as best as I can, and that's all.

 

[starsevol]

In one way or another slavery is the reasoning for alot of today's inequality, and that's why there is still a large desparity for minorities. I don't consider opportunities that are exclusive to minorities handouts for this reason, and I believe things like affirmative don't even begin to level the playing field, so why do people keep acting like it's somehow easier to be a minority.

I don't think being a "minority" is easy AT ALL.
But how long has slavery (in THIS country) been over?
How long is the healing supposed to take?
Yes, slavery is a horrible thing, but it has existed as long as there were human beings on this planet, and is STILL going on. And slaveowners TODAY aren't the "evil" white man, either. In human history every race was most likely slave to another race at some time. It's not right, never has been. But it's time to go forward, not backward.

And taking something away from Robbie because of something his great great grandfather "might" have done 100 years ago is no way to move forward...imo...

 

[Michael823]

Yes, I will agree that when it was FIRST introduced, it was needed. But now? Now it's just plain ridiculous. Slavery ended in 1865. That's almost 200 years ago. I very highly doubt that anyone has a father or grandfather that was a slave. It's time for the African American minorities to stop playing the slave card. It's gotten them a LOT of hand outs from the descendants of plantation owners, cotton farmers, tobacco farmers, etc. They called it "reparations". They've already been paid. Why do we have to keep paying? If you truly want equality, make everyone truly equal. Do job and college interviews over the phone, and remove the "race and ethnicity" question on all applications. America has progressed quite a bit since segregation and slavery, and if a minority truly DESERVES the job, they can have it. I'm just sick and tired of them getting it because there's a quota of diversity that the employers need to fill.

This is the exact logic that I don't agree with, and I just don't see things the same way you do. I think that racism is still alive, and there are many areas of society that reflect this.
Look at college sports, and compare the number of African American players, to the number of African American coaches. It's a multi-billion dollar industry, all built on a majority of unpaid minority players, and the funds go to a predominantly white institution. Where does this money go? Most to the guys in suits, some back to the schools, of which the smallest amount goes back to minority students to help with tuition. You would have a better chance getting paid tuition from this, than by cutting affirmative action, and the United Negro College Fund.

 

[vetusvates]

Vetusvestes, you are by far one of the more educated people on this site, and I always enjoy your posts. If I sound like I'm reaching here, I apologize. This whole discussion is really wearing on me, and I hate feeling like I'm the only one who actually thinks about equality in America. I may not have the historical knowledge that you do, so my posts aren't as eloquent as I'd like, but I really do try to speak from my heart about these issues. But that tends to cause more debates than answers, but oh well. I'm just trying to defend equality as best as I can, and that's all.

Michael, I believe your arguments are sincere, and you do believe in equality. And we do share common ground, in that guaranteed equal legal rights to gays is a near and dear issue to my heart.
But....I have built a life on not blaming others for being held down (whether that be somewhat true or not), but on pulling myself up by my bootstraps academically/educationally, professionally, spiritually, and philosophically, etc.
Battles aren't won just by waiting for poetic justice, holding up shields (or expecting foes to honor treaties). Battles are won by tactics, strength, skill, and courage....to step out into the fray swinging.
Believe me, you are not the only one thinking about equality. Gays and lesbians, women, jewish people, african americans, muslims, moslems, etc.,....and by no means the least, Native Americans...and other minorities think about equality every day.
And there is nothing at all wrong with speaking from your heart, just be sure you make the distinction, and/or can back up info you use as a factual basis for your arguments. There are some real debating pro's on the forum, who are far more aggressive and well-read than I.

 

[Ricky87]

there is nothing at all wrong with speaking from your heart, just be sure you make the distinction, and/or can back up info you use as a factual basis for your arguments. There are some real debating pro's on the forum, who are far more aggressive and well-read than I.

Aggression and debating tactics are nothing if your hearts not in the right place. My computer can give me all the factual tid-bits I would need for any debate, but that doesn't mean I'm going to value it when it comes to reasoning and judgement. Really this topic, when you boil it down, has just become "Has it been long enough since slavery for african-americans to catch up in wealth, status, and equality?". The answer; NO WAY!.

Slavery encompasses the most extreme of Americas vicious history, but civil rights have only been in our history for more than 40 years. I mean, Rodney King is still a young man, so the claim that it's been 200+ years is off the mark, in my opinion.

Some of us have evolved since the times of slavery and our families values are based on all human equality, but these families are the minority. Look at gay rights. I'm not comparing being an african-american to being a homo-sexual, but the oppression is there. Personally, I would have all people have not only equal rights, but equal respect. Judging by popular vote, though, a majority dis-agree. Sad but true. All I can say is that until your a latin-american, or an african-american, or a muslim, or a homo-sexual living in our society the most you can do to judge their struggles is speculate!.

 

[vetusvates]

Well said, Ricky.

 

[wade]

Jazzgeeks signature has a quote that I really love. Dale I hope you don’t mind if I use it.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell

Please post what was racist, otherwise... For you to make that accusation is ridiculous, but most of your posts are anyways. Also post what hatred was in what I posted, I'm very curious.

Michael, I’m sorry you find me ridiculous. I find you argumentative and eager to be offended. Those are the reasons I use for avoiding debate with you. But asking me to back up my words is fair. And being fair is oh so important to me.

I think it’s people like you who keep racism alive. You go out of your way to find offence where none is intended. You are constantly singing the song about how picked on you are an how you deserve something special as a result.

My aunt is African American, and grew up in a prodominantly white area of America, and affirmative action was a huge ground for her to go to college. She deserved every bit of assistance coming from where she did, and these organizations only aim to balance inequality. The percentages of minorities are still very low compared to the overall population, and sometimes people need that boost to help them rise beyond a situation. Just because racism isn't as physical as it was, people overlook it. But it's there, and still prevents certain groups of people from equality.

Why does your aunt “deserve” college assistance? Do the "white people" that grew up in that same area deserve assistance? Why does Robbie not deserve some assistance? You can read the facts any way you like but the vast majority of college graduates come from homes where education is a priority. They come from homes where the parents are also educated. It may also follow racial lines, but the race is not the cause.

And again I agree, we are all americans, no if's and's or butt's about it. But again for the sake of what I quoted initially, the statement implied that only whites deserved the label of true being true Americans. . But The point was that without all of the unrewarded work of minorities, we would'nt have the country we do. There are some white people who are afforded luxuries due to their ancestors (like plantation owners, tobacco farmers, etc...), luxuries the ancestors of unpaid slaves just don't have, even though some did all of the work that made their slave owners rich, a wealth that is still passed down whether we see it or not..

I'm not saying plantations exist today, I'm saying all of the free labor from slaves, that gave slave owners wealth and land, like tobacco farms, cotton farms, etc.. that wealth, and business wealth is past down through generations. So why shouldn't minorities be entitled to some forms of inherited wealth, or job opportunity, like affirmative action, or other benefits offered.

First off, you are the only one that has said or implied that “white people” are the only true Americans. Your twisted perception of what is said helps support your anger, but it’s your fabrication and your anger.

This is my favorite part. Your alter ego twin even chimed in on this. White people are rich and advantaged because of inherited wealth from the plantation owners. REDICOULOUS! Do you have any idea how wrong that statement is. Man you are reaching for straws to justify yourself.

First of, back in the day, plantation owners were a very small minority. Very Small Minority. The vast majority of “white people” in the 1700’s and 1800’s did not own slaves of any kind. They didn’t share in the wealth provided by the black people. (I wonder if we should send their ancestors to college?) You are talking about 10 generations ago.

Lets say I have three kids, and they have 3 and they have 3. In one sentence we have gone from me to my great grand children. If I die with a million bucks and give it to my kids and they to theirs and theirs…. My great grand children will each get around 30,000 out of my million. With which they can build an empire. The next generation won’t get enough for coffee.

Michael, you’re looking for a fight where there is none. You have a chip on your shoulder the size of Montana. I have spent more energy on you than you’re worth.

 

[Michael823]

Michael, I’m sorry you find me ridiculous. I find you argumentative and eager to be offended. Those are the reasons I use for avoiding debate with you. But asking me to back up my words is fair. And being fair is oh so important to me. I think it’s people like you who keep racism alive. You go out of your way to find offence where none is intended. You are constantly singing the song about how picked on you are an how you deserve something special as a result.

I never related this to my situation, or say one thing about myself being picked on, but good try.

I have spent more energy on you than you’re worth.

You know nothing about my worth, and I would rather you not waste my time, and your energy. You're either the one making goofy comments for attention, or your serious and worthy of listening to, maybe it comes and goes with a brew. I really don't care what you're rep is, how many people find you amusing, or anything else. You chimed in, I responded, and could care less about your opinion.
I have the up most respect for people like Vestvetus, Tom E, Robbies Corn Field, and anyone else who states their opinion, regardless of how much I agree or disagree, and keep it as a debate of opinions, even if they believe whole heartedly they're right. But you seem like the type that thinks you're fair and just, and tells only the truth, but you are mostly condescending and rude.

 

[v_various]

Since the UNCF and NAACP were brought up, where's the groups for white only scholarships? I have yet to find one. If I were any color other than white, I could have my college tuition completely paid for.

OT, a friend of mine was telling me about their african-american friend from high school. They applied for an african-american scholarship - since they were from africa - but couldn't get it because they were white. In fact, of the 5 people I know who where born & grew up in Africa, 100% of them are white.

Cool accent too.

I agree with Tom. I think this story was blown in one direction to make it sound more interesting, I've known too many journalists to believe otherwise.

 

[Cornsnake124]

Since this is being debated so hard I thought I would add to the debate.

There are NO valid points here, and I find all of it absolute garbage.

Well I sure find valid points.. If a white person called a black person something racially "incensitive", they would be tied to the steak to burn. But when a black person says the same thing to a white person, its ok. Its just how these people have made the world work.

This is still a country built on the work of minorities, and the benefit of white people.

I would hate to think what what this country would be if white people didn't make stores, and make a base for a society. So to say the minorities did all the work, is untrue.

For minorities it is a constant struggle to live in a world like this.

How is it? we bow down to you just to please you. How is it hard? you get to do things none of us would be allowed to.

I could find hundreds of cases of police brutality on minorities right now, and to say they're all drug dealers, gang members, and carjackers, is totally over the line.

Nobody said that all people who are in minorities and are arrested are the above types. But the main thing was that they were breaking the law, and were resisting arrest. I have no problem with a cop using force to make a warranted arrest.

why can't people judge the single person/people involved, instead of grouping everyone into one category of minorities trying to dethrone white people.

Nobody did that. Nor would I want someone to do that. But you had no problem with classifying all white people as greedy, fat, lazy, and racist. I call that being hipocritical.

I get so bothered with these race debates

Than why did you fan the small ember to make it a house fire?

Since the UNCF and NAACP were brought up, where's the groups for white only scholarships? I have yet to find one. If I were any color other than white, I could have my college tuition completely paid for.
Why do those foundations exist? Affirmative action. Something that really needs to be removed. It's pretty sad that if I apply for an open position in a college, and a minority student applies for the same position, even if I have higher test scores, 9 times out of 10, I won't be accepted. And yes, I have verified that. A friend of mine, originally from Haiti, and I decided to apply to the same college, both going for the same major. She was accepted. I wasn't. My ACT and SAT scores were higher than hers, as was my GPA. And yes, it did happen with more than one school. Everyone's worried about offending the minorities by sending out a letter that says "Sorry, you weren't accepted", because they know if they accept more minorities, they can get more funding from the government. It's absolutely ridiculous. What about me? Don't I deserve scholarships? If I do, I can't find any. I can't find a job at the moment, either. Yet everyone that's been hired on recently any place near me (that I've applied at, anyways) has been either Hispanic or African-American.

This is what I talk about when I say that minorities get things that we don't just because they are in a minoritie.

In one way or another slavery is the reasoning for alot of today's inequality, and that's why there is still a large desparity for minorities. I don't consider opportunities that are exclusive to minorities handouts for this reason, and I believe things like affirmative don't even begin to level the playing field

Of course slavery makes inequality. But its the other way around. Minorities keep playing the slavery card to get more things from us, and it just puts us down. Slavery ended over 200 years ago. Nobody alive today has any grevence from slavery. But they still play it to get more things.

Why does your aunt “deserve” college assistance? Do the "white people" that grew up in that same area deserve assistance? Why does Robbie not deserve some assistance? You can read the facts any way you like but the vast majority of college graduates come from homes where education is a priority. They come from homes where the parents are also educated. It may also follow racial lines, but the race is not the cause.

True.

Why DOES your aunt deserve college assistance more than a white person who has higher grades, GPA, etc... ? We can never truly be equal until minorities stop being treated special. Then we are just alike.

You know nothing about my worth, and I would rather you not waste my time, and your energy.

From what you have posted, we really do know most of your worth and beliefs.

There is my giant post. hopefully this makes a difference in the debate.

 

[Ricky87]

There is my giant post. hopefully this makes a difference in the debate.

LOL, NOT REALLY!!!!! LOL, LOL, LOL!!!.

 

[tsst]

Let's finish the quote " Calling a white person a cracker or honkey is nothing, compared to the hatred of calling someone the N word". And I agree both are offensive, and shouldn't be used, but for the sake of what I quoted, which basically stated it was OK to say the N word, seeing the person has been called cracker, is totally off track. ...

You are spinning to make it fit your need. The post said that it was thought ok to call a white person those names but racist to use derogatory terms to minorities. Nowhere did it say it was OK to use the N-word if a white person is called a cracker. But let's finish the quote "Calling a white person a cracker or honkey is nothing compared to the use of the N word, and any white person who loves self pity enough to pretend it holds as much hate is clueless". Neither is ok no matter which you deem to be less filled with hatred. (incidentally I am curious how you measured the hatred level of the person making either statement) Attempting to apply a weighting system to the hatred level of a comment seems a way for you to make being racist towards a white person tolerable. But as you say it is just a clueless white person wallowing in self pity.

...And again I agree, we are all americans, no if's and's or butt's about it. But again for the sake of what I quoted initially, the statement implied that only whites deserved the label of true being true Americans. Which disgusts me seeing there have been many minorities who have died fighting for our freedoms, and for that person to consider himself more American is disgraceful....

The true American statement came from you.

...But The point was that without all of the unrewarded work of minorities, we would'nt have the country we do. ...

Again you seem to think these things only apply to minorities. The vast majority of Americans, including white people, have worked throughout history to make this country what it is. Many with little or no reward.

... There are some white people who are afforded luxuries due to their ancestors (like plantation owners, tobacco farmers, etc...), luxuries the ancestors of unpaid slaves just don't have, even though some did all of the work that made their slave owners rich, a wealth that is still passed down whether we see it or not. ...

vetusvates, why did you not tell me you are filthy stinking rich from your ancestral plantation? You are definitely buying lunch! :roflmao:

... So if there's affirmative action, and the NAACP, to act as an aid to help the ancestors of opressed minorities, and create opportunities, than that's a great thing. ...

I assume you mean descendants. As someone else already pointed out there was a time when these were genuinely needed. Today though they seemly serve as much to maintain the racial divide as to assist the oppressed masses.

...Nothing in what I said categorized all whites as a whole, and I apologize for the misconception. ...

There are NO valid points here, and I find all of it absolute garbage. This is a HUGE can of worms that shouldn't even be debated, but since you posted it.
This whole country was founded by, and made for, white people. That's why there is the united negro college fund, the NAACP, and everything else. Because if they're wasn't, than what would there be for the betterment of minorities. Do you know why these systems are in place? who started them? and when?
I hate the thought that we're so removed from being racist, that now we are now the biggest victims of it. Calling a white person a cracker or honkey is nothing compared to the use of the N word, and any white person who loves self pity enough to pretend it holds as much hate is clueless. This statement says it all, "There are African Americans, Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, Arab Americans, etc. And then there are just Americans", implying that somehow the only true Americans are white, thus proving this is still a country built on the work of minorities, and the benefit of white people (regardless of Obama), and for minorities it is a constant struggle to live in a world like this.
"You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us. But, when a white police officer
shoots a black gang member or beats up a black drug-dealer running from
the law and posing a threat to society, you call him a racist." and who's you, and who's us. I could find hundreds of cases of police brutality on minorities right now, and to say they're all drug dealers, gang members, and carjackers, is totally over the line.
These threads always turn into this ridiculous us against them argument, and it's such a load of garbage. This was one isolated issue, and why can't people judge the single person/people involved, instead of grouping everyone into one category of minorities trying to dethrone white people. I get so bothered with these race debates, and assume this post will bring dozens more out of the wood works, but oh well.

No misconception.

...I was VERY frustrated with the post, and that's a subject that fuels me more than just about anything.

Most of us can understand frustration and passion for things that are important to us. I'm sure I have made my share of frustrated posts. Being careful not to commit what you are condemning goes along way.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I never understood this black vs white racial argument...

I can go pre-slavery and say my ancestors were murdered by the colonials...Yet I am not entitled to any "minority benefits" (at least that I'm aware of) and hold no ill will to other races for what happened generations ago.

 

[wade]

You're either the one making goofy comments for attention, or your serious and worthy of listening to, maybe it comes and goes with a brew. I really don't care what you're rep is, how many people find you amusing, or anything else. You chimed in, I responded, and could care less about your opinion.
I have the up most respect for people like Vestvetus, Tom E, Robbies Corn Field, and anyone else who states their opinion, regardless of how much I agree or disagree, and keep it as a debate of opinions, even if they believe whole heartedly they're right. But you seem like the type that thinks you're fair and just, and tells only the truth, but you are mostly condescending and rude.

No time for goofy comments, how sad. We have established that you and I will not be buddies. We have identified three people who we both respect their opinions. Does this mean you’re not going to rep me?

I hope that believing that I tell the truth and believing in what I say does not establish me as an individual.

Bottom line Michael, your whole argument centers around the fact that you believe certain people deserve special treatment and special consideration, based solely on the color of their skin. You also believe that other people are bad and should provide that special treatment and consideration based solely on the color of their skin. That is raciest, plain and simple. Which take us back to my original statement. You are the most raciest person I have encountered on this forum. I have never debated with a person that is so narrow minded and eagerly willing to distort reality to make it fit your prejudices.

Yes, I believe I am right and telling the truth. Unfortunately, I think you believe you are right too.

 

[Ricky87]

I never understood this black vs white racial argument...

I can go pre-slavery and say my ancestors were murdered by the colonials...Yet I am not entitled to any "minority benefits" (at least that I'm aware of) and hold no ill will to other races for what happened generations ago.

First off, their are no benefits strictly because of your race. 50 Cent doesn't get checks at the beginning of the month just because he's black and his ancestors suffered slavery. People who get government assistance get it for financial reasons, or because their suffering has otherwise been validated for other reasons. Where this is all forgotten, I don't know. As for your ancestors being murdered by colonials, that's a terrible point. Unless your father was hosed down and attacked by police dogs for fighting for his freedom as an individual, you really can't compare. Slavery has been gone for some time, but racism and segregation are issues that have only even been evaluated since the 1960's. I'm not expecting anyone here to change their opinions because of my post, but I at least urge people to try and understand things under the surface, and in a much deeper context. For starters, study up on your civil rights history. Read the biography of Martin Luther King Jr.

I think deep down people like to debate this issue, because of a feeling inside that they have the will to overcome, in their minds, this "invisible" plight still left from slavery. We all just want to blame a group of people for not getting what we want out of life. Suddenly welfare is the reason your depressed, because all your "hard-earned" cash is being wasted on what some consider lazy minorities. This philosophy is nothing new. "Their taking our jobs!."; "Their the ones bringing all the drugs into this country!."; "Look at the crime rates, minorities commit the most crimes!.". It's just another tactic to pawn your dis-satisfaction with your life on an easy target. Would if we could gain the capacity to think deeper, we might start asking the serious questions; "What job's are the ones being taken?.", Who's buying and using most of these drug's?.", "Why are minorities targeted by law enforcement at such a higher rate?.".

I'm sure if more people would be objective in this topic and actually tried to learn about our not so distant history, we would be better for it. Just my opinions, but that's what this forum is for I suppose!.

 

[Ricky87]

You are the most raciest person I have encountered on this forum. I have never debated with a person that is so narrow minded and eagerly willing to distort reality to make it fit your prejudices.

Have you checked out Marvin Mirror?; he distorts reality and fact like crack distorts judgement!. As for narrow minded, I would expect nothing less from someone who refuses to look inside for answers instead of the constant labels YOU produce. I'm not going to pursue this too far, because I have little faith in the enlightenment of anyone who has dwelt for so long in the same frame of mind. I'd prefer teaching my dog to surf, where at least some possibility remains. Still, I do hope you see things differently, and it is never too late to change!.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Ricky, my point completely zoomed over your head I guess. As was discussed at the beginning of this thread, their are scholarships and organizations targeted for some minorities (Why do we even use the word minority anymore? I doubt its definition still holds true.) and nothing equal to that for "whites." No one mentioned anything about checks issued? On the subject of government assistance, not everyone that needs it gets it. If you think that, you are sadly mistaken. Government assistance is quickly drying up because of the employment and benefits losses felt across the country.

The main point in my statement is that I do not blame the generations of today for what happened in the past. It's stupid to do so. Myself or my family doesn't expect to be tip-toed around or have special benefits because of what happened hundreds of years ago, no one should.

I have seen racism directed at every race. Black, White, Asian, Arabic, etc. Racism does not discriminate.