The US flag is offensive ...

[RobbiesCornField]

I actually don't know the story behind Michael Richards and what I posted, this thread just reminded me of it, so I figured I'd stop being such a lurker and contribute.

As for defending the right to be racist, that's not how I meant it to be taken. IMHO racism is a horrible thing, and not something that SHOULD be defended. My posting it was more of a look at the way people we're not "allowed" to be racist against, can be racist to us, and it's okay (that sounds bad coming out, and I really don't mean for it to, but I can't think of another way to word it.)

What you're trying to say is "If they can be mean, nasty, and down right cruel to us, why then, when we do the same thing to them is it called racist?" Or something to that effect.

 

[vetusvates]

I actually don't know the story behind Michael Richards and what I posted, this thread just reminded me of it, so I figured I'd stop being such a lurker and contribute.

As for defending the right to be racist, that's not how I meant it to be taken. IMHO racism is a horrible thing, and not something that SHOULD be defended. My posting it was more of a look at the way people we're not "allowed" to be racist against, can be racist to us, and it's okay (that sounds bad coming out, and I really don't mean for it to, but I can't think of another way to word it.)

Point taken. And there is a legitimate point there (in that long quote). But lingering too long in the defense...implies there is something to defend.

 

[Regit]

Yeah Robbie, something like that. I mean, in the end we're all human beings, regardless of race, age, gender, etc. Just because a certain race is a minority in a country shouldn't give them the right to pick on others.

Eric, reading it over again from your point of view, you're right, there is a lot of defence there, something I didn't really notice before.

 

[icepick]

Now it is offensive for a US citizen to display the US flag in a US company, in a US city, in a US state, in the USA?!?!? And it offends none other than a non-US citizen living here for the last 14 years. Maybe we should get the UN to vote on whether we are even allowed to have a flag anymore? (SARCASM)

Hmmm, offended by a symbol of the very freedom used to express the malcontent for the display of said symbol.

And to lay it on the floor ... arrggghh! Heros have literally died protecting our flag from desecration. My heart bleeds everytime I see such utter lack of respect. For some of us it's not just a piece of material, it's not just a form of speech. It too represents freedom in general and moreover it represents all of the brave men and women that, in our history, have given their very lives for it and our country!


:realhot::angry01::headbang:

http://cbs11tv.com/local/patriotism.at.office.2.1020415.html

what is going on in this world!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just last weekend a group of canadians were trying to raise a flag on canadian soil across from a native/gov't land dispute site.
police were alert to the situation and before the guy could plant the flag he was arrested along with a group of others there that were peacefully attempting to show their patriotism!

 

[vetusvates]

Yeah Robbie, something like that. I mean, in the end we're all human beings, regardless of race, age, gender, etc. Just because a certain race is a minority in a country shouldn't give them the right to pick on others.

Eric, reading it over again from your point of view, you're right, there is a lot of defence there, something I didn't really notice before.

Please take it all in the good spirit of discussion.
Considering probably no one from Louisiana has forgotten that we were once part of a confederacy, that got licked by yanks. The deep south itself has a lot to overcome and a long way to go,...to make certain issues into non-issues. I guess that's why my own perspective might even likely be deemed (overly) sensitive by some.
Good discussion.

 

[Michael823]

Just found this thread, and even though I am not American, I too would be angry if an immigrant was offended by a Canadian flag. They live in our country, they fly their home country flags, wear them on t-shirts, and show their pride for their country, why can't we do the same? A friend of mine posted this a few months ago on his facebook, I dug it up for you guys, it's interesting, and makes a lot of valid points.

Michael Richards better known as Kramer from TV's Seinfeld.
This was his defense speech in court after making racial comments in his
comedy act.
He makes some very interesting points.

Proud To Be White

Someone finally said it. How many are actually paying attention to this?

There are African Americans, Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, Arab
Americans, etc. And then there are just Americans.

You pass me on the street and sneer in my direction. You Call me 'White
boy,' 'Cracker,' 'Honkey,' 'Whitey,' 'Caveman' ... and that's OK.

But when I call you, N****r, Kike, Towel head, Sand-n****r, Camel Jockey,
Beaner, Gook, or Chink ... You call me a racist.

You say that whites commit a lot of violence against you, so why are the
ghettos the most dangerous places to live?

You have the United Negro College Fund.
You have Martin Luther King Day.
You have Black History Month.
You have Cesar Chavez Day.
You have Yom Hashoah.
You have Ma'uled Al-Nabi.
You have the NAACP.
You have BET.

If we had WET (White Entertainment Television) we'd be racists.
If we had a White Pride Day, you would call us racists.
If we had White History Month, we'd be racists.
If we had any organization for only whites to 'advance' OUR lives we'd be
racists.

We have a Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, a Black Chamber of Commerce, and
then we just have the plain Chamber of Commerce.

Wonder who pays for that?

A white woman could not be in the Miss Black American pageant, but any
color can be in the Miss America pageant.

If we had a college fund that only gave white students scholarships you
know we'd be racists.

There are over 60 openly proclaimed Black Colleges in the US. Yet if
there were 'White colleges' THAT would be a racist college.

In the Million Man March, you believed that you were marching for your
race and rights. If we marched for our race and rights, you would call us
racists.

You are proud to be black, brown, yellow and orange, and you're not afraid
to announce it. But when we announce our white pride, you call us racists.

You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us. But, when a white police officer
shoots a black gang member or beats up a black drug-dealer running from
the law and posing a threat to society, you call him a racist.

I am proud. But you call me a racist.

Why is it that only whites can be racists?

There are NO valid points here, and I find all of it absolute garbage. This is a HUGE can of worms that shouldn't even be debated, but since you posted it.
This whole country was founded by, and made for, white people. That's why there is the united negro college fund, the NAACP, and everything else. Because if they're wasn't, than what would there be for the betterment of minorities. Do you know why these systems are in place? who started them? and when?
I hate the thought that we're so removed from being racist, that now we are now the biggest victims of it. Calling a white person a cracker or honkey is nothing compared to the use of the N word, and any white person who loves self pity enough to pretend it holds as much hate is clueless. This statement says it all, "There are African Americans, Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, Arab Americans, etc. And then there are just Americans", implying that somehow the only true Americans are white, thus proving this is still a country built on the work of minorities, and the benefit of white people (regardless of Obama), and for minorities it is a constant struggle to live in a world like this.
"You rob us, carjack us, and shoot at us. But, when a white police officer
shoots a black gang member or beats up a black drug-dealer running from
the law and posing a threat to society, you call him a racist." and who's you, and who's us. I could find hundreds of cases of police brutality on minorities right now, and to say they're all drug dealers, gang members, and carjackers, is totally over the line.
These threads always turn into this ridiculous us against them argument, and it's such a load of garbage. This was one isolated issue, and why can't people judge the single person/people involved, instead of grouping everyone into one category of minorities trying to dethrone white people. I get so bothered with these race debates, and assume this post will bring dozens more out of the wood works, but oh well.

 

[Michael823]

By the way regit, I know these were not your opinions, I just think it was a bad post for this debate.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Since the UNCF and NAACP were brought up, where's the groups for white only scholarships? I have yet to find one. If I were any color other than white, I could have my college tuition completely paid for.
Why do those foundations exist? Affirmative action. Something that really needs to be removed. It's pretty sad that if I apply for an open position in a college, and a minority student applies for the same position, even if I have higher test scores, 9 times out of 10, I won't be accepted. And yes, I have verified that. A friend of mine, originally from Haiti, and I decided to apply to the same college, both going for the same major. She was accepted. I wasn't. My ACT and SAT scores were higher than hers, as was my GPA. And yes, it did happen with more than one school. Everyone's worried about offending the minorities by sending out a letter that says "Sorry, you weren't accepted", because they know if they accept more minorities, they can get more funding from the government. It's absolutely ridiculous. What about me? Don't I deserve scholarships? If I do, I can't find any. I can't find a job at the moment, either. Yet everyone that's been hired on recently any place near me (that I've applied at, anyways) has been either Hispanic or African-American.

 

[vetusvates]

These threads always turn into this ridiculous us against them argument, and it's such a load of garbage. This was one isolated issue, and why can't people judge the single person/people involved, instead of grouping everyone into one category of minorities trying to dethrone white people. I get so bothered with these race debates, and assume this post will bring dozens more out of the wood works, but oh well.

There is great value and meaning in what you say, Michael. And I see much common ground. That it takes time for awkward, obsolete, and ugly issues to ultimately evolve into non-issues,...is little solace for an impatient person like me.

 

[Cornsnake124]

About the race debates: Nobody can really be equals until we just stop talking about it, and stop being racially sensitive. Then everyone is really equal. But aparently by Obama's new supreme court nominee, mexican women are better than white men. I don't call that equal. Until we stop talking about it, minorities are still going to minorities, and one little slip of words will get you kicked around by everyone politically correct..

 

[tsst]

...Calling a white person a cracker or honkey is nothing compared to the use of the N word, and any white person who loves self pity enough to pretend it holds as much hate is clueless. ...

I would agree that it does not hold the stigma of the N-word, but you are being self-deceiving if you believe those words are not used with a hatred intent. Statements like this "Calling a white person a cracker or honkey is nothing" should assist greatly in the elimination of racism.

...This statement says it all, "There are African Americans, Mexican Americans, Asian Americans, Arab Americans, etc. And then there are just Americans", implying that somehow the only true Americans are white,...

What is a true American? Are you implying the titles you listed above were developed by powerful white people as a standardized form of government approved racism? Why can we not drop everything but American for everyone? I don't call myself English, Welsh, Irish, German, Austrian, Belgian, Native American. (may have missed a few in there, I'm a real mutt lol)

... thus proving this is still a country built on the work of minorities, and the benefit of white people (regardless of Obama), and for minorities it is a constant struggle to live in a world like this. ...

Are you daft? So according to you only minorities worked hard to build this nation to what it is and white people just sat around and reaped the benefits. My ancestors have been here since the colonial days. They helped build towns, start businesses, raise families, fought in wars, risk there lives as abolitionists on the underground railroad, survived the great depression, and worked very very hard every step of the way. Please do not do as you condemn and group all white people as lazy, benefit mongering, racists. CLUE: Many people are struggling to live in a world like this, it is not a burden reserved only for minorities!

... These threads always turn into this ridiculous us against them argument, and it's such a load of garbage....

You have assisted in turning it. I opened the thread about the display of a US flag for the Memorial holiday.

... This was one isolated issue, and why can't people judge the single person/people involved, instead of grouping everyone into one category of minorities trying to dethrone white people. I get so bothered with these race debates, and assume this post will bring dozens more out of the wood works, but oh well.

In every statement you made you felt ok in grouping all "white" people together as implied racists. Thanks for your efforts in perpetuating racism!

...That it takes time for awkward, obsolete, and ugly issues to ultimately evolve into non-issues,...is little solace for an impatient person like me.

We share that impatience my friend!

 

[wade]

Very well said tsst. I have to spread rep, sorry.

Michael823, I have said this to you before, but you are the most raciest person on this board. I may not live in the heart of the ghetto but I never hear the kind of hatred that comes from you often. I think you should do some serious soul searching before you start pointing fingers at anyone.

 

[tom e]

Anybody seen this flag abuse? Outrageous. (and somewhat cute.)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090530...5bl9oZWFkbGluZV9saXN0BHNsawNzcXVpcnJlbGF0bWk-

 

[Susan]

Sorry Wade...I have to spread it around some more, but you deserve rep for both of your posts in this thread!

 

[Michael823]

Very well said tsst. I have to spread rep, sorry.

Michael823, I have said this to you before, but you are the most raciest person on this board. I may not live in the heart of the ghetto but I never hear the kind of hatred that comes from you often. I think you should do some serious soul searching before you start pointing fingers at anyone.

Please post what was racist, otherwise... For you to make that accusation is ridiculous, but most of your posts are anyways. Also post what hatred was in what I posted, I'm very curious.

 

[Michael823]

Since the UNCF and NAACP were brought up, where's the groups for white only scholarships? I have yet to find one. If I were any color other than white, I could have my college tuition completely paid for.
Why do those foundations exist? Affirmative action. Something that really needs to be removed. It's pretty sad that if I apply for an open position in a college, and a minority student applies for the same position, even if I have higher test scores, 9 times out of 10, I won't be accepted. And yes, I have verified that. A friend of mine, originally from Haiti, and I decided to apply to the same college, both going for the same major. She was accepted. I wasn't. My ACT and SAT scores were higher than hers, as was my GPA. And yes, it did happen with more than one school. Everyone's worried about offending the minorities by sending out a letter that says "Sorry, you weren't accepted", because they know if they accept more minorities, they can get more funding from the government. It's absolutely ridiculous. What about me? Don't I deserve scholarships? If I do, I can't find any. I can't find a job at the moment, either. Yet everyone that's been hired on recently any place near me (that I've applied at, anyways) has been either Hispanic or African-American.

Also robbie, you never point fingers, and share your opinions freely, so I very much respect that about you. But affirmative action shouldn't be removed, and you make it sound like somehow college is an easier achievement for minorities. My aunt is African American, and grew up in a prodominantly white area of America, and affirmative action was a huge ground for her to go to college. She deserved every bit of assistance coming from where she did, and these organizations only aim to balance inequality. The percentages of minorities are still very low compared to the overall population, and sometimes people need that boost to help them rise beyond a situation. Just because racism isn't as physical as it was, people overlook it. But it's there, and still prevents certain groups of people from equality.

 

[Michael823]

I would agree that it does not hold the stigma of the N-word, but you are being self-deceiving if you believe those words are not used with a hatred intent. Statements like this "Calling a white person a cracker or honkey is nothing" should assist greatly in the elimination of racism.

Let's finish the quote " Calling a white person a cracker or honkey is nothing, compared to the hatred of calling someone the N word". And I agree both are offensive, and shouldn't be used, but for the sake of what I quoted, which basically stated it was OK to say the N word, seeing the person has been called cracker, is totally off track.

What is a true American? Are you implying the titles you listed above were developed by powerful white people as a standardized form of government approved racism? Why can we not drop everything but American for everyone? I don't call myself English, Welsh, Irish, German, Austrian, Belgian, Native American. (may have missed a few in there, I'm a real mutt lol)

And again I agree, we are all americans, no if's and's or butt's about it. But again for the sake of what I quoted initially, the statement implied that only whites deserved the label of true being true Americans. Which disgusts me seeing there have been many minorities who have died fighting for our freedoms, and for that person to consider himself more American is disgraceful.

Are you daft? So according to you only minorities worked hard to build this nation to what it is and white people just sat around and reaped the benefits. My ancestors have been here since the colonial days. They helped build towns, start businesses, raise families, fought in wars, risk there lives as abolitionists on the underground railroad, survived the great depression, and worked very very hard every step of the way. Please do not do as you condemn and group all white people as lazy, benefit mongering, racists. CLUE: Many people are struggling to live in a world like this, it is not a burden reserved only for minorities!

Again I agree, alot of what I posted was out of severe frustration of the post. But The point was that without all of the unrewarded work of minorities, we would'nt have the country we do. There are some white people who are afforded luxuries due to their ancestors (like plantation owners, tobacco farmers, etc...), luxuries the ancestors of unpaid slaves just don't have, even though some did all of the work that made their slave owners rich, a wealth that is still passed down whether we see it or not. So if there's affirmative action, and the NAACP, to act as an aid to help the ancestors of opressed minorities, and create opportunities, than that's a great thing.

You have assisted in turning it. I opened the thread about the display of a US flag for the Memorial holiday.

In every statement you made you felt ok in grouping all "white" people together as implied racists. Thanks for your efforts in perpetuating racism!

We share that impatience my friend!

Your thread was great, and I'm not posting about your original post. I'm posting about the nonsense in the post that regit posted. Nothing in what I said categorized all whites as a whole, and I apologize for the misconception. I am white, I do know that the color of someones skin means nothing, and know from experience that being white doesn't give you automatic handouts. But replying to a thread that was very black and white, I may have come across as that way myself. I was VERY frustrated with the post, and that's a subject that fuels me more than just about anything.

 

[vetusvates]

Again I agree, alot of what I posted was out of severe frustration of the post. But The point was that without all of the unrewarded work of minorities, we would'nt have the country we do. There are some white people who are afforded luxuries due to their ancestors (like plantation owners, tobacco farmers, etc...), luxuries the ancestors of unpaid slaves just don't have, even though some did all of the work that made their slave owners rich, a wealth that is still passed down whether we see it or not. So if there's affirmative action, and the NAACP, to act as an aid to help the ancestors of opressed minorities, and create opportunities, than that's a great thing.

Now wait a minute.
Michael, I can't just let this slide. You are gonna have to provide me with some stats and references on what I italicized in bold above. I grew up in plantation country, and in no instance, off the top of my head, am I aware of an original blood descendent that still owns, lives in, or operates a plantation. If privately owned, it is usually a rich foreign 'collector of things'. But they are primarily historic landmarks, maintained by admission fees and private donations and endowments.
I'm not being difficult or confrontational, but that stuff is what myth is made of, of deceased days long passed.

 

[Michael823]

Now wait a minute.
Michael, I can't just let this slide. You are gonna have to provide me with some stats and references on what I italicized in bold above. I grew up in plantation country, and in no instance, off the top of my head, am I aware of an original blood descendent that still owns, lives in, or operates a plantation. If privately owned, it is usually a rich foreign 'collector of things'. But they are primarily historic landmarks, maintained by admission fees and private donations and endowments.
I'm not being difficult or confrontational, but that stuff is what myth is made of, of deceased days long passed.

I'm not saying plantations exist today, I'm saying all of the free labor from slaves, that gave slave owners wealth and land, like tobacco farms, cotton farms, etc.. that wealth, and business wealth is past down through generations. So why shouldn't minorities be entitled to some forms of inherited wealth, or job opportunity, like affirmative action, or other benefits offered.

 

[starsevol]

My view is a bit controversial...I think.
I think we are all born onto different "teams".
It's part of who and what we are.
And not just one team, MANY teams.
I'm on the "white" team...the "straight" team...the "married" team, the "middle-aged" team...the "female" team, as well as many other teams.

Some of us are "allowed" by society to advertise for our various teams in different ways. And, depending on the teams, sometimes society frowns upon such advertisement.

Personally, I think all teams are just fine. But I think it's natural to identify and be proud of whatever teams you happened to be born into. I like my teams. They are what I know, what I identify with. It's not that I dislike other teams, but some of them can show team pride that I can't. I care a GREAT DEAL about what "nice" society thinks of me, and I would personally never intentionally do something to hurt a member of another team. EVER.

So, maybe I can't show "pride" for my team. But I'm sure as hell not going to be ashamed of it either! I have OTHER sins to atone for, but my "teams" that I was born into are not those sins!

So, why is Robbie paying for crimes he's never commited? I prefer EQUALITY....