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8 ft rattle snake

I'm not aware of any. Most wilderness areas, National Parks, and wildlife sancturaries have a very healthy population of both prey and predator. There is no hunting allowed in these areas, and the areas are small enough to be self-sustainable through wild populations of the food chain.

I'm not sure about what is meant by "other areas". National wildlife managers have done a decent job of reintroducing and regulating large mammals across the country over recent years, and we already see the effects of large predators in suburban neighborhoods. Bears, coyotes, and mountain lions are already seen in populated areas in many parts of the west...

I have to agree. Before I left Central Iowa for college in Texas, we were starting to see populations of mountain lions near my hometown. They've been reintroduced quite well in most areas but there is still a need for humans to go out and hunt deer becuase we are apex predators... How has that not been brought up yet?
 
The thing is, pruddock, humans throughout history have proven that sometimes they just don't hunt responsibly. A normal apex predator hunts when he needs to, hunters in the past (and some in the present, mostly poachers really.) hunted just for the fun of it and don't care about using anything or keeping animals numbers stable.
 
The thing is, pruddock, humans throughout history have proven that sometimes they just don't hunt responsibly. A normal apex predator hunts when he needs to, hunters in the past (and some in the present, mostly poachers really.) hunted just for the fun of it and don't care about using anything or keeping animals numbers stable.

Coyotes, wolves and sometimes even cats can and will kill and leave prey animals. It is well documented. Heck, Ive heard stories from biologists about hawks killing red heads, 6 or 7 at a time, a number they could not eat in two weeks.

We are not the only ones who have killed unnecessarily. The fact is, the market hunting days of old are long gone. Today's hunter is a responsible, ethical, conservationist. On a similar note, poachers are not hunters.
 
The thing is, pruddock, humans throughout history have proven that sometimes they just don't hunt responsibly. A normal apex predator hunts when he needs to, hunters in the past (and some in the present, mostly poachers really.) hunted just for the fun of it and don't care about using anything or keeping animals numbers stable.

Humans throughout history have sometimes proven that anything we can do, we will sometimes do irresponsibly. So what? Maybe I'm missing it, but I really don't see how that is important to the dicsussion.:shrugs:

Human beings in general are arrogant, wasteful, and irresponsible creatures. I don't believe that is anything new, and I don't believe you will find anyone arguing against that...
 
Humans throughout history have sometimes proven that anything we can do, we will sometimes do irresponsibly. So what? Maybe I'm missing it, but I really don't see how that is important to the dicsussion.:shrugs:

Human beings in general are arrogant, wasteful, and irresponsible creatures. I don't believe that is anything new, and I don't believe you will find anyone arguing against that...

Agreed. When the Clovis people wandered over from Siberia into Alaska and peopled the Americas during the Ice Age, they effectively killed off dozens of species. Megafauna such as giant sloths, cave bears, mammoths and other animals went extinct in a matter of millenia due to over-hunting. It sucks, but its not a new phenomenon.

Humans over-do a lot of things. I'm sure there are a few irresponsible people on this site who over-harvest live snakes to add to their collections, who reintroduce captive bred morphs into the wild and who lack any regard for the delicate balance of our ecosystems. They give the rest of us a bad name. Who knows, maybe as we speak there are a bunch of hunters sitting at their laptops on their favorite hunting forum, engaged in a thread about how "unnecessary and irresponsible" reptile keepers are....
 
I have like a thousand quotes that I wanted to respond to but it just upsets me too much. I worry that I might call someone a mean meanie head or worse so instead of responding to individuals I will just post what I think in general terms.

How can you say 'I am against hunting' while you pay other people to 'hunt' for you? Really it isn't even hunting when livestock are killed it is just straight up a slaughter, when I shoot an animal in the wild they at least had a nice life leading up to their death and in reality they have a chance to survive (I could miss, they could see, smell, or hear me before I get a good shot lined up, none might show up that day, etc). Live stock on the other hand is crowded, prodded, branded, pumped with hormones and antibiotics, and they have no chance to escape. At least if I hunt an animal they have a chance, a penned up animals fate is sealed. When I kill an animal it takes just a moment and one, maybe two shots to finish the job, where as livestocks final moments can be much longer and more uncomfortable to the animals. I don't know why people always thinking hunting results in suffering like most people who use guns I have no intention of pulling that trigger unless I am very clear about where that bullet is going to end up its not like hunters have to shoot an animal hundreds of times over the course of hours to finish it off. Typically the only times we have hunted animals (that weren't turkeys) they have been in our own back yard and frankly they eat my garden, that means they are quite literally taking food from me and my family.

Everyone can say whatever they want about hunting but at Thanksgiving, we will both be eating turkey but I will know that the turkey I am eating had a wonderful free life, and I will know for sure that it died as quickly and peacefully as possible, because beginning 11/6 I will be watching out the windows and when the time comes I will man up and make sure it dies as quickly a peacefully as possible. I don't have to act like a wimp and have someone else do my dirty work for me. To those who oppose hunting I have to wonder what will you do to make sure your turkey has not lived in cruel conditions? What will you do to make sure it dies humanely? And as for the savings, how much do you spend to feed your family Thanksgiving? I have to buy garlic ($1), butter ($2.50), flour($3), milk ($3), and some ammo ($2 max). My turkey, potatoes, sweet potatoes, green beans, rolls, and stuffing will all be provided by myself, my mother in law will make the pie, for a total cost of $11.50. Not only will I save a small fortune preparing that meal, I will also know that what I am feeding my kids is hormone, antibiotic, pesticide, and cruelty free. Can my family afford to buy all of the ingredients for thanksgiving like a normal person yes absolutely the grocery store and I are very well acquainted I have to shop there every week, but I can get a much higher quality meal (without any factory farming cruelty) all for a very low cost so why again shouldn't I be doing this?

Saying I am against hunting so I hire someone else to kill my animals is like saying I am against murder so I hired a hit man. A pathetic excuse.
 
I think a lot of people who say they are "against hunting" are people who simply wouldn't/couldn't do it themselves or don't like the thought of shooting an animal. Anyone who looks at it (especially vs. buying meat) logically could not possibly want to end the practice. Even vegetarians can't argue hunting's positive ecological impact. It would be a disaster not to allocate land for wildlife (like hunters do), keep populations in check, and all the many arguments stated previously.

There are those animal rights extremists who wish we didn't even live on "their" land, but those are the same people who would end pet ownership, laboratory testing, etc. And frankly, I'd like to know where it would be okay for six billion humans to live for those with that radical philosophy.
 
Well, pruddock brought up the fact that we are apex predators suggesting that it's enough reason to rely on us to keep prey animals numbers down. I bought up that hunters in the past haven't been responsible, making me iffy about whether or not the hunters of today would be responsible enough to take care of prey animals but not eradicate them. I certainly hope that they are. I did not know so many hunters were conservationists, so that actually makes me feel better about the whole situation.

But I would still like to see a natural predator take care of prey animals in the wild. It's always depressing to see animals completely eradicated in a certain area.
 
Well, pruddock brought up the fact that we are apex predators suggesting that it's enough reason to rely on us to keep prey animals numbers down. I bought up that hunters in the past haven't been responsible, making me iffy about whether or not the hunters of today would be responsible enough to take care of prey animals but not eradicate them. I certainly hope that they are. I did not know so many hunters were conservationists, so that actually makes me feel better about the whole situation.
Hunters and fishermen are generally speaking some of the most impassioned conservationists in this country. It is us, and those like us, spending money to buy land, and donating it for public use, spending money and dedicating time to keep public lands clean and free of contaminated debris, funding lobbyists and legislation to prevent private ownership of public lands, block developement of habitat, and prevent "conservation groups", like The Sierra Club, from blocking any and all public land use.

We do this because we enjoy the land, and we enjoy the animals. We love what we do, and without the prisitne lands and healthy animals, we would not be able to do it.

Most of your "conservation groups" and "environmentalists" are, in truth, preservationists that would rather do away with all interaction, prevent responsible land use and access, and generally keep humans as far away from the outdoors as possible. They do this because they have very little comprehension of what ACTUAL conservation involves, and it is easier to keep people out than to keep places clean.

But I would still like to see a natural predator take care of prey animals in the wild. It's always depressing to see animals completely eradicated in a certain area.
Go to a National Park, or really, any large expanse of western land. There are wolves, coyotes, bobcats, mountain lions, and bear all outside my door, all thriving on natural prey. You can also find grouse, sagehen, pheasant, elk, mule deer, big horn sheep, small mammals, small birds, and reptilian prey animals in spades.

I would like to know which animals you are concerned with being eradicated due to hunting in this day and age. *Most* of the endangered species in this country are well protected by the government, and endeared to the hunters. I can't think of anyone that I know that hunts that would DREAM of shooting at a raptor, or taking an animal out of season or without proper permits and tags.

I mean no offense by this at all, but your biggest concerns, as far as I can tell, aren't much of a concern. They are more like liberal "talking points", and environmentalist propoganda. Fear tactics from a whole different perspective, to be honest.

That's nothing against you, or anyone else, personally. Just do a little more research. The information that you are basing your fears and opinions on is outdated and frankly, no longer of any importance, as it is no longer accurate.

I don't mind someone having a different opinion than I do, and I certainly don't wish to tell anyone that doesn't hunt that they are a somehow lesser person for it. I just want you to base your opinions on pertinent information, not outdated scare tactics drummed up from decades ago by some environmentalist group to tell you what you're supposed to feel about hunting.

The real data on predatory reintroductions, and the survival rates of once-threatened species in this country is readily available. The environmental impact reports for most major hunting regions are readily available. The real information is out there. You just gotta look for it, instead of believing what environmental groups are feeding you...
 
I certainly hope that they are. I did not know so many hunters were conservationists, so that actually makes me feel better about the whole situation.

Ducks Unlimited is one of the oldest organizations protecting wildlife habitat in the country. Founded by & for people who hunt waterbirds.
 
I think a lot of people who say they are "against hunting" are people who simply wouldn't/couldn't do it themselves or don't like the thought of shooting an animal.
That's not entirely fair. I could never hunt and kill my own food, I would just become too emotional. Unless it was a matter of me starving and dying in the woods somewhere, I couldn't kill. But I fully understand those who do and why and frankly it's a hobby just like any other. I don't particularly care for knitting, either, but it doesn't make me want to badmouth those that do.
 
http://ecos.fws.gov/tess_public/SpeciesReport.do?groups=A&listingType=L&mapstatus=1

Those species are all endangered in one place or another. And those are just the mammals. I'm not saying we shouldn't clear out animals for homes or anything. I'm just a firm believer in preserving the natural order, and keeping our expansion to a minimum.

Nobody is denying the existence of endangered species. As I said a while ago, humans are known for their ability to screw everything up. It's what we do best. At least we have the sense to have protections in place and regulations to help eliminate future estinctions due to hunting.

The point I am trying to make is that the large predators that would be able to keep large herds of grazing deer, mule, elk, and antelope in check have already been reintroduced to the point that they DO find themselves wandering into fairly well populated areas.

"Preserving the natural order" is a wonderful idea, in theory. In reality, we have a billion people on this planet, and every one of them wants to live some place.

Preserving, hell, we would have to first restore a natural order, and it simply isn't feasible. You can't have it both ways, there simply isn't enough room.
 
Nobody is denying the existence of endangered species. As I said a while ago, humans are known for their ability to screw everything up. It's what we do best. At least we have the sense to have protections in place and regulations to help eliminate future estinctions due to hunting.

The point I am trying to make is that the large predators that would be able to keep large herds of grazing deer, mule, elk, and antelope in check have already been reintroduced to the point that they DO find themselves wandering into fairly well populated areas.

"Preserving the natural order" is a wonderful idea, in theory. In reality, we have a billion people on this planet, and every one of them wants to live some place.

Preserving, hell, we would have to first restore a natural order, and it simply isn't feasible. You can't have it both ways, there simply isn't enough room.

Very well put. I tried to Rep. you, but it said I had to spread some around first. :)
 
http://ecos.fws.gov/tess_public/SpeciesReport.do?groups=A&listingType=L&mapstatus=1

Those species are all endangered in one place or another. And those are just the mammals. I'm not saying we shouldn't clear out animals for homes or anything. I'm just a firm believer in preserving the natural order, and keeping our expansion to a minimum.

I am not familiar with every species on your list but let me speak about the ones I am familiar with.

Key Deer, yes they are endangered and it is also illegal to hunt, harass, molest, or even mess with one

FL Panther, again they are a species that is in trouble and again it is practically illegal to even look at them cross eyed.

I know for a fact there is no such thing as key deer hunting season, and to my knowledge there is no such thing as FL panther hunting season.

Some of those FL species are not endangered or threatened because of hunting but actually because of habitat loss. Like the Wood mouse, cotton mouse, and vole. Hunting isn't why these animals are in jeopardy houses and outside cats are the reasons that those animals are struggling.

When I was in WY this summer my host gave me very clear instructions if a bear attacks do not shoot it, use the bear spray. I asked them why they would give me such lousy advice and they told me that if I were to kill a bear even in self defense the local authorities would still find a reason to lock me up for harassing a protected species, even though I am a totally sane person who would never encounter a bear on purpose it would be assumed that I had been looking for a reason to interact with said bear and that any resulting attack would be my fault. Apparently a couple years ago a bear got into somebody's house and that man shot the bear and he was investigated, arrested and tried. Sure the jury let him go because the freaking bear was attacking the man in his house, but that didn't stop the authorities from completely turning this mans life upside down for months simply because he wanted to defend himself in his own house.

Moving on to species I know less about personally is there such thing as whale hunting season in the US? I don't think there is. What about polar bear hunting season. Again I don't think it is legal to hunt them ever. Bison again to my knowledge cannot be hunted ever.

So I guess my point is I fail to see how your list of struggling species is relevant since many of those animals are not hunted and are not struggling because of over hunting. Nobody is denying that there are endangered species, I'm just saying it is typically illegal to even touch an endangered species forget about hunting one.
 
Pretty sure there are places you can hunt polar bear in Alaska and Canada. Probably VERY limited licensing, but outdoor hunting shows have featured it. As for whales, some shore towns such as Nantucket were founded on whaling. Thankfully, we no longer need blubber for lamp oil or whalebone for corsets and carriages. I think most all the whaling going on in the modern age occur in Japan.
 
Interesting I did not know that you could hunt polar bear anywhere in the US but then again I avoid places that snow like the plague so I wouldn't have any first hand knowledge. I am aware that people used to whale in the US but I am just about positive that doesn't happen here anymore at all, and it is unfair to say well hunters are bad because a long time ago before any of us where born some people hunted a lot of whales. The point was that a list of endangered/threatened species is not relevant to a hunting discussion unless those species are being hunted in an area where their population is struggling so I ask on that list which of those species are legally being hunted?

How many of those species are threatened or endangered because of hunters and how many of them have issues because of habitat destruction and human encroachment? Is it hunters who are over hunting these animals or is it farmers killing these animals to protect their livestock (you know the farmers who raise animals and slaughter them so that way those who are anti hunting can still have meat without having to face the reality of what that means)? Because eating livestock animals means that not just that animal is killed but so are all the predators that are nearby so that way the farmer can keep his farm safe. It means large expanses of habitat are destroyed and made into suitable grazing areas for the livestock thereby displacing the natural animals. Being endangered/threatened does not necessarily have anything to do with hunters. There are lots of ways to become endangered. If someone wants to be pro endangered species then they should be pro hunting because no natural habitats have to be destroyed to create an unnatural living environment for livestock, and no predators have to be killed to protect the live stock, hunting by far results in less killing than farming does. Instead of ruining animals homes and killing the ones who will eat your live stock you just go out see what you can find and then eat that. So to be anti hunting because you are worried about endangered species is just silly because more animals are harmed by farming practices than by hunting practices. Lots of animals are threatened and endangered because of farming and expansion.

So you say polar bears are hunted which of the other animals on that list are hunted in areas where their populations are struggling (remember I am not from Japan or Canada so I can't speak for them)?
Second question is it hunting that is causing the polar bears trouble or is it climate? Or is it habitat loss/encroachment like with the FL mice and Key deer?

It isn't fair to blame hunters for all endangered species when a lot of species issues stem from houses, farms, cities, and roads being built where the animals used to live. Additioanlly a lot of animals are killed to keep the livestock animals safe. I mean look at the list a lot of those animals hold no interest for a hunter. Its not like everyone in the keys goes out hunting the woodrat so they can have its tiny rat head mounted on their wall, it isn't like you are going to get any meat from one and it isn't even sporting/fun to hunt a rat so how are they relevant to a discussion about hunting?

I am mostly familiar with how my state works and I can tell you that here the joke is that to even look at an endangered species will get you locked up, now of course that is a joke, but every joke has a grain of truth to it right.

I am not saying everyone needs to go out and hunt whether they like it or not but to claim you are against hunting because of some sort of compassion for animals is a bogus argument. Hunting is just as humane if not more so than factory farming and it is by far less destructive to animal populations than factory farming.
 
Just to take this back to the OP's pictures -- while I don't really see the point of rattlesnake hunting on the whole, there are probably times & places where it's appropriate. And just because people are showing off their big catches doesn't mean they are only hunting trophies. Rattlesnake is quite edible and some people like it, so I would not be surprised to read that these snakes were photographed then turned into steaks for future consumption, which means they were not really "wasted." Just something to think about.
 
Just to take this back to the OP's pictures -- while I don't really see the point of rattlesnake hunting on the whole, there are probably times & places where it's appropriate. And just because people are showing off their big catches doesn't mean they are only hunting trophies. Rattlesnake is quite edible and some people like it, so I would not be surprised to read that these snakes were photographed then turned into steaks for future consumption, which means they were not really "wasted." Just something to think about.

This is absolutely true and definitely a point worth mentioning. It is very possible that they turned those snakes into steaks. I hope so, because if they killed it just to get rid of it then they are a bunch of morons.

On the other hand, if they eat the snake then that's a different story. I'm no trophy fisher- i fish to eat it, but if I get a nice looking trout I'm gonna have a buddy snap a picture of it.
 
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