Is there any real evidence that you can select for temperament within a species? I haven't seen any, but if there is some evidence out there, I would like to see it. Corn snakes, as a species, tend to be fairly docile and adapt to captivity very well. But if you breed less docile individuals to each other, will that produce predominantly offspring that will grow up to be less docile adults? I doubt there's a good way to tell this for sure. If so, I would think somone would have been able to create racers and whipsnakes that would do well in captivity. I think this thread is based on some faulty assumptions. But, as usual, if there's any real, science based evidence out there, I would like to hear about it.
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The Domestication of Reptiles and it's Effect on the Reptile Hobby?
- Thread starter Carinata
- Start date
Shiari
Blutterer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox
Absolutely. Very famous and ongoing study. Started with wild foxes and in 40 years, now has dog-tame ones.... and they are starting to look more like dogs too! And that's just as a natural by product of selecting for behaviour.
medusacoils
Mr. Enigma!
Ignorance of proper husbandry and Domestication are two separate issues. I missed your point here. "shrugs: Sorry?!?!
Ignorance of proper husbandry is something that is going to occur as long as their are misinformed or uneducated people working in "pet store" regardless of domestication or the lack there of.
Wayne
Outcast
ATPSS
Why do I get the feeling that you are just trying to start another argument, David?
I do not understand why you feel it is ok to breed for color, but when someone wants to breed snakes for temperament, you think it is "playing God".
I would really like to see your numbers on how many people get an animal because of how it acts, and neglects its needs...
In fact, working at a pet store myself, I see people want to get dwarf hampsters all the time, because they are "cute", and nearly every time I reach in to get the little guys out, I get bit. It has been my experience, that people buy for the cuteness factor, not the temperament factor.
Having used to breed dogs, temperament is important, you do not want to breed animals that are too skiddish, nor do you want to breed animals that are too lazy, depending on the type of dog, and what it will be used for. IMO, the same thing could be applied for snakes, I would love to start breeding for tameness in my snakes and see if something like that of the fox study would manifest itself.
I do not understand why you feel it is ok to breed for color, but when someone wants to breed snakes for temperament, you think it is "playing God".
I would really like to see your numbers on how many people get an animal because of how it acts, and neglects its needs...
In fact, working at a pet store myself, I see people want to get dwarf hampsters all the time, because they are "cute", and nearly every time I reach in to get the little guys out, I get bit. It has been my experience, that people buy for the cuteness factor, not the temperament factor.
Having used to breed dogs, temperament is important, you do not want to breed animals that are too skiddish, nor do you want to breed animals that are too lazy, depending on the type of dog, and what it will be used for. IMO, the same thing could be applied for snakes, I would love to start breeding for tameness in my snakes and see if something like that of the fox study would manifest itself.
Yes, that's definitely been proven for some mammals. But I was really referring to snakes here, although maybe it wasn't clear. Is there any evidence that you can selectively breed for temperament within snake species?
Outcast
ATPSS
I do not know if it has ever been tried.
Tavia
Elemental Exotics
I've heard of a few hobbyist experiments along those lines, none really big enough or long enough to be conclusive. Generally, it does seem to work with breeding one or two very tame individuals together, get extra tame hatchlings. Also breed one or two especially nasty individuals together and get nasty tempered babies. However, it's not 100% in these clutches and some clutches, from both types, would have babies with a range of temperaments. So it isn't simply a matter of breeding, but that apparently can influence it.
Irish Eyes (Mrs.Z)
Zookeeper
I've read about this study, before. Make a bunch of tame foxes. Why? So they can be good pets for people like me, who adore foxes and every other dog-like species?? Hell, no! To make them easier for the fur farmers to kill.
Yeah, I know. It happens with a lot of species. I still don't have to like it. And in this case, I REALLY don't like it!
Sorry. Had to rant. Back to the discussion at hand.
Shiari
Blutterer
Ah, but you see, by making them tame they actually 'ruined' them for the fur industry. Colors were wrong, tail length wrong, fur quality wrong... Taming kept them from being turned into coats.
whippet
Tara
Gosh David...To me saying that we are domesticating reptiles by breeding for temperment and other factors (like say small retics) ...I feel as if that is putting breeders into a box. It seems to be that you wish to be in a field. To have the "wild" side that does not confine you into such square demensions.
I think perhaps I will stick with calm snakes I can enjoy by handling them...put me in a box if you like. But boxes have air conditioning and cable.
Fields have mosquitoes.
I think perhaps I will stick with calm snakes I can enjoy by handling them...put me in a box if you like. But boxes have air conditioning and cable.
Fields have mosquitoes.
Shiari
Blutterer
Pardon me, Tara, while I go and die laughing would you?
Fields also have ticks and mites and stinging nettles. I tend to like square things, such as computers. And books. And well, cats certainly seem to think that boxes are the best things ever, and who am I to argue with my feline overlords?
Fields also have ticks and mites and stinging nettles. I tend to like square things, such as computers. And books. And well, cats certainly seem to think that boxes are the best things ever, and who am I to argue with my feline overlords?
oneirogenesis
become passers-by
I can't say that I understand how breeding snakes for pattern and colour is justifiable in your eyes, while breeding snakes for disposition is not. I could argue that selectively breeding snakes for attractiveness makes them more appealing to the general public and therefore more likely to be purchased on impulse. I don't see how either form of selective breeding can be considered more ethical than the other, especially without solid evidence and research to support the claim.
Irish Eyes (Mrs.Z)
Zookeeper
I sincerely hope so, for their sakes! Dang, some of those oddly-colored foxes were absolutely stunning! I hope many people in Russia are able to keep these pretties as pets, and save them from the slaughter.
Carinata
Ever Evolving Exotics
The immaturity some of the people who are posting prove to me I can't selectively try and have a discussion. Small retics are fine, certain NATURAL locals are smaller. My point is a lot of animals that are docile by nature ten to have fairly easy care. Many that are more nervous have more difficult to maintain. If we make the more difficult species more appealing by breeding a natural instinct out of them they become more appealing for the first time snake keeper to buy but the other requirements are still there and those may be ignored because the snake is cute and cuddly so people buy it anyway without knowledge of the species. I don't want to continue this if people are going to make personal jabs, accusations and low-blows. It's not worth my time to try and have a discussion with a forum that for some reason cannot just talk but has to drag personal conflict into the simple discussion of our hobby.
Also when breeding for temperment, it should be noted that in most animals I have dealt with, the original fiesty, nasty or whatever is still just under the surface. And when tripped leaves some owners quite surprised that their cuddly mild mannered pet is capable of going off like that. And in some ways is related to Carinata is refering too. Owners can be fooled into thinking they are getting something they are not. And then you have an owner who has no idea how to deal with what they now have on their hands.
Outcast
ATPSS
Sorry David, You started the thread with the intention of getting people riled up by calling out everyone who breeds, not only for color but temperament. In my opinion, you are the one who is starting these things in order to farther your belief that people are "stalking" you around the forums and trying to make you look bad. At first I would try my best to stand behind you, but for you to start calling people immature for stating their honest opinions, on the subject at hand, is yet another way to try and get people to attack you.
Are you doing some sort of study for school? to see how many people you can tick off? It seems like every time someone does not agree with your mindset, no matter how off key and wrong it is, they are being immature, or "idiots".
And, after reading the thread again, I have noticed that everyone has been very kind in their posts, disagreeing with/ asking you to put your assumptions in other words so that we could get a better understanding of what you meant.
I still see no reason to tell the people who breed for temperament over color that they are "playing God", and you have not given me any reason to believe that I should. I would love a GTP that I could hold without it trying to eat my face. I believe that a tame snake can do wonders in teaching children about their importance to the world, and in fact, when I start my educational things that I wish to do, I will only be pulling out the tame ones for the kids to see up close. So, if there were more that had been bred for temperament, that would just open up more doors for me to use different species of snakes.
So, again, please I ask, will you tell me where you got your numbers to back up your assumptions that because an animal is more tame, that it will be most likely neglected? or is it just that, and assumption?
Are you doing some sort of study for school? to see how many people you can tick off? It seems like every time someone does not agree with your mindset, no matter how off key and wrong it is, they are being immature, or "idiots".
And, after reading the thread again, I have noticed that everyone has been very kind in their posts, disagreeing with/ asking you to put your assumptions in other words so that we could get a better understanding of what you meant.
I still see no reason to tell the people who breed for temperament over color that they are "playing God", and you have not given me any reason to believe that I should. I would love a GTP that I could hold without it trying to eat my face. I believe that a tame snake can do wonders in teaching children about their importance to the world, and in fact, when I start my educational things that I wish to do, I will only be pulling out the tame ones for the kids to see up close. So, if there were more that had been bred for temperament, that would just open up more doors for me to use different species of snakes.
So, again, please I ask, will you tell me where you got your numbers to back up your assumptions that because an animal is more tame, that it will be most likely neglected? or is it just that, and assumption?
Lovin2act
I gave my wife herps
Here here.
ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
You actually lost me in the first post when you said you had noticed a trend over the past few years... For one we all know you are still in your teens and also still relatively new to the hobby. And, though I have seen it mentioned once in the past few days, no other time before that I can recall.
The place it was mentioned was in my info for would be corn breeders thread, that discussion also got heated yet stayed more or less civil, considering the controversial subject and strong feelings people have. Maybe you can enlighten me where else in your past few years has it been discussed.
You want to pick a hairy topic to talk about then don't blame others for getting defensive or expect to be able to control what they say, the thread might not go the way you want.
I can't see any benefit to trying to keep snakes as "wild" as we can, that are destined to be pets and not going to be living in their natural environment, Not to the individual snake, not to the reputation of its species, not to the hobbyist keeper that owns it. But people have already mentioned a whole bunch of advantages for trying to breed for a tamer snake.
The place it was mentioned was in my info for would be corn breeders thread, that discussion also got heated yet stayed more or less civil, considering the controversial subject and strong feelings people have. Maybe you can enlighten me where else in your past few years has it been discussed.
You want to pick a hairy topic to talk about then don't blame others for getting defensive or expect to be able to control what they say, the thread might not go the way you want.
I can't see any benefit to trying to keep snakes as "wild" as we can, that are destined to be pets and not going to be living in their natural environment, Not to the individual snake, not to the reputation of its species, not to the hobbyist keeper that owns it. But people have already mentioned a whole bunch of advantages for trying to breed for a tamer snake.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
I think domestication of reptile pets is great!
For animals meant to be pets (as opposed to some conservation effort aimed at eventual release to bolster wild populations), why not?
A pet that is more beautiful and tamer than its wild counterpart is more likely to be loved and cared for, IMHO. I don't understand your link to vicious species being inherently more difficult to care for than docile species - except in avoiding injury to the keeper, of course.
Amazon tree boas (especially wild caught specimens) are among the least friendly of all. Yet they are not too difficult to care for, especially compared to the "relatively" more docile chondros. However, if the calmer animals of any pet species are selected for the captive gene pool, and if each succeeding generation produces pets that are less nervous, then the whole pet experience should be more enjoyable and humane for those animals. Although I am not telepathic, I find it difficult to believe that a nervous rat snake or tree boa has a more enjoyable life as a pet than one of the same species that happened to be born / hatched with a calmer personality. And I feel that would be true no matter how great the conditions are that you supply for your nervous pet, as long as at least the basic needs were met in either case (for a nervous or calm pet).
I agree with a previous poster that most impulse buyers will buy for beauty, and just assume that a "pet" snake will be tame, unless proven otherwise during the purchase. So if we want to prevent impulse sales, we should make sure that all difficult to care for species are bred to be ugly!
As far as breeding snakes for docility, I do have some anecdotal experience. Many years ago, my okeetee line had a heavy infusion of genes from 2 super looking males I owned. They were quite vicious, but gorgeous. In succeeding generations, I bred for color and pattern, ignoring disposition because I considered it unimportant. Now, even though I have outcrossed and started paying more attention to temperament since the hobby became more mainstream, my okeetees STILL are more nervous than my other lines. I can't PROVE it is a result of using those 2 males a lot many years ago, but I am convinced that is the case.
And I thought Tara's post was HILARIOUS - it really made me giggle! I didn't see it as a serious jab at you, but rather an "in" joke that will only be apparent to those who have been members for quite a while. I don't know if that was the spirit it was intended, but if it was aimed at me, I would acknowledge it as a witty way to lighten the discussion, and then get back to the serious debate.
But as for the real discussion, I have to agree with the others. If you agree that a species is going to be kept in captivity, whether for meat, milk, pets, or any other purpose, then it is a good idea that the species become as compatible with its keepers as possible, in order to make the experience less stressful for both animal and human.
For animals meant to be pets (as opposed to some conservation effort aimed at eventual release to bolster wild populations), why not?
A pet that is more beautiful and tamer than its wild counterpart is more likely to be loved and cared for, IMHO. I don't understand your link to vicious species being inherently more difficult to care for than docile species - except in avoiding injury to the keeper, of course.
Amazon tree boas (especially wild caught specimens) are among the least friendly of all. Yet they are not too difficult to care for, especially compared to the "relatively" more docile chondros. However, if the calmer animals of any pet species are selected for the captive gene pool, and if each succeeding generation produces pets that are less nervous, then the whole pet experience should be more enjoyable and humane for those animals. Although I am not telepathic, I find it difficult to believe that a nervous rat snake or tree boa has a more enjoyable life as a pet than one of the same species that happened to be born / hatched with a calmer personality. And I feel that would be true no matter how great the conditions are that you supply for your nervous pet, as long as at least the basic needs were met in either case (for a nervous or calm pet).
I agree with a previous poster that most impulse buyers will buy for beauty, and just assume that a "pet" snake will be tame, unless proven otherwise during the purchase. So if we want to prevent impulse sales, we should make sure that all difficult to care for species are bred to be ugly!
As far as breeding snakes for docility, I do have some anecdotal experience. Many years ago, my okeetee line had a heavy infusion of genes from 2 super looking males I owned. They were quite vicious, but gorgeous. In succeeding generations, I bred for color and pattern, ignoring disposition because I considered it unimportant. Now, even though I have outcrossed and started paying more attention to temperament since the hobby became more mainstream, my okeetees STILL are more nervous than my other lines. I can't PROVE it is a result of using those 2 males a lot many years ago, but I am convinced that is the case.
And I thought Tara's post was HILARIOUS - it really made me giggle! I didn't see it as a serious jab at you, but rather an "in" joke that will only be apparent to those who have been members for quite a while. I don't know if that was the spirit it was intended, but if it was aimed at me, I would acknowledge it as a witty way to lighten the discussion, and then get back to the serious debate.
But as for the real discussion, I have to agree with the others. If you agree that a species is going to be kept in captivity, whether for meat, milk, pets, or any other purpose, then it is a good idea that the species become as compatible with its keepers as possible, in order to make the experience less stressful for both animal and human.