Occupy Wall Street protest

[ghosthousecorns]

I'm surprised how little media coverage this is getting, I actually heard about from a friend not the news...
A whole bunch of people are fed up and marching in the streets, all over the country. They are calling it "American Fall* a la "Arab Spring"-
BBC news link
pics

 

[Emanon]

hope and change

 

[Nanci]

They make me sick.

 

[Nanci]

“I do think at a certain point you've made enough money” STFU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ghosthousecorns]

The protesters make you sick?

 

[Nanci]

Yes .

 

[Nova_C]

They are protesting the fact that many of the wealthiest people on Wall Street gained much of their wealth through manipulation of the markets, resulting in the current state of the American economy. I mean, if that makes you sick, cool, but that seems to be really cold when there are a lot of unemployed in the US as a result of the recklessness of speculators.

It's interesting that during the protests there were people up on balconies, drinking champagne and mocking the protests. Basically, the impression is, America's wealthiest find the desperation of America's poor amusing and entertaining.

Every time this has happened before in history, with the gap between the rich and poor growing to a ridiculous degree, class warfare was the inevitable result. Is this really the optimal outcome, Nanci?

 

[Nanci]

It reminds me of the rioters in London "We're just showing the police and the rich that we can do what we want," "We're just taking back our taxes." No, you're not. You're breaking the law and blaming successful people for your failure.

IMO, Obama encourages class warfare because it suits his agenda.

 

[Nova_C]

....so the near historically high unemployment in the US is the fault of the unemployed? That makes absolutely no sense to me. I'm not sure how the nation's most economically vulnerable are responsible for job creation. Mind filling me in?

Also, this is the first I've heard of Obama encouraging class warfare. Can you show me where he's done so? Or what his agenda is that is supported by class warfare?

Also, protesting is illegal in the US now? When did that happen?

 

[Nanci]

....so the near historically high unemployment in the US is the fault of the unemployed? That makes absolutely no sense to me. I'm not sure how the nation's most economically vulnerable are responsible for job creation. Mind filling me in?

I don't believe I said that.

Also, this is the first I've heard of Obama encouraging class warfare. Can you show me where he's done so? Or what his agenda is that is supported by class warfare?

I find Obama's statement “I do think at a certain point you've made enough money” vile.

Also, protesting is illegal in the US now? When did that happen?

I was referring to the riots in the UK, which is what this reminds me of. How is this helping anything? Waste of time.

But whatever- I don't feel like getting into a political debate. The chasm between the opposing sides can never be mended and one side will never understand, sympathize with or agree with the other.

Are you, or are you not, (Americans) better off now, financially, or worse off now, than when we had a Republican president? I know my place of employment has had severe financial difficulties, which affects my income.

And I can already predict the response: "I inherited this mess." Well, you didn't do anything except make it worse, did you...

 

[Nova_C]

"I was referring to the riots in the UK, which is what this reminds me of. How is this helping anything? Waste of time." If I'm wasting time by questioning your comparison of the Wall Street protests to the London ones, why did you bring up London in the first place? Either they're similar or they're not.

Obama's performance notwithstanding, the Republican obstructionism certainly hasn't helped, especially when they held the world economy hostage during the debt ceiling debate. Notice that the debt ceiling was raised under Bush something like 19 times, so this was essentially the more extreme political right proving their willingness to collapse the American economy in order to extort the rest of the government.

It's interesting how you feel that rampant profiteering is something that shouldn't be criticized, but Canada's economy is near the strongest in the world and our economy is heavily regulated by the government. It's also interesting that we have a very socially conservative government in place, one that is trying to push through policies that are similar to the US and as it happens our economy falters. I can tell you this - Canada was much better off with a centrist government that supported social programs and government regulation of the financial sector.

It's that last one you may want to look into as even Adam Smith, 'The Father of modern Capitalism" advocated for that regulation.

 

[chris68]

But whatever- I don't feel like getting into a political debate. The chasm between the opposing sides can never be mended and one side will never understand, sympathize with or agree with the other.

That's the root of the problem tho; most people feel that way.

The Government works for us, we need to remind them of that from time to time. If you think the government has had your best interests at heart all the time the last 20 odd years keep dreamin'...And NO president* was going to be able to come in and wave a magic wand and make it all better...and the President plays the game like the rest of them...c'mon a Chicago politician that doesn't?...

It's a mess, but We the People share a large part of the blame...




* ps: well maybe one...President Colin Powell...with Vice President Bill Cosby and Secretary of State Bill Clinton would have been a better three "firsts" imho...would have got more done too I bet

 

[Rich Z]

I think people are just fed up and don't really have any good outlet to blow off steam that they feel will really help DO anything to relieve the pressure. Heck, Connie and I were on vacation a couple of weeks ago, and just walking down the beach talking to other beach combers, EVERYONE eventually starts talking about how pissed off they are about our government. It seems that everyone, everywhere is just flat out pissed off these days.

The government put us MANY trillions of dollars into debt and instead of trying to come up with REAL solutions to reduce that debt, they fight like cats and dogs over ways to raise the limit on how much deficit spending they can continue to do. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE! They are just spending way more money than they are getting and aren't even beginning to see where the real problem lies. I think this, more than anything else, has really pointed out to a majority of the people how bad things really are. So I think finally FEAR OF OUR FUTURE is setting in (which is tightly associated with anger) to where people are now thinking that the way of life we have now CAN really come to a crashing end. Pretty much make the great depression a picnic in comparison. Not only can jobs evaporate, but any money you have saved can become worthless overnight when the government finally goes bankrupt. Money is NOT a guarantee of value. It's a promissory note by the government TELLING us it has some value that we can redeem it for. If the government defaults on it's debts, then suddenly that PROMISE of payment for currency becomes worthless.

Quite frankly, unless the borrowing of money that can never be repaid, and the printing up of more paper money to help pay the bills ends, I think most people realize that this just CANNOT end well at all. What will you do if hyperinflation sets in and you suddenly find that the cost of a gallon of gas has risen to $1,000? A pound of ground beef costs just as much? If you have a job, do you think your raises can keep pace? How long do you think your savings will be able to keep buying groceries?

So yeah, people are using these ad hoc protests to vent that anger based on fear. And I suspect the public displays will grow until they reach a point where the government will crack down HARD on our freedoms to try to end them. Right now they are trying to simply discredit and ignore them and hope most people don't catch wind of the movement and also join in to raise their voices as well. Which is pretty typical of the pet media these days. And I think there is a real good chance that pretty soon we will find out just how much control the government can exert on the internet.

Personally I think that anyone or any group the major media belittles or dismisses in a negative connotation should be taken seriously as being a positive step for this country. For instance, the "Tea Party" is getting an enormous amount of bad press these days, and will likely increase the closer we get to election day. But why is that? Here's the mission statement for the Tea Party:

The Tea Party movement is a grassroots movement of millions of like-minded Americans from all backgrounds and political parties. Tea Party members share similar core principles supporting the United States Constitution as the Founders intended, such as:
• Limited federal government
• Individual freedoms
• Personal responsibility
• Free markets
• Returning political power to the states and the people

As a movement, The Tea Party is not a political party nor is looking to form a third political party any time soon. The Tea Party movement, is instead, about reforming all political parties and government so that the core principles of our Founding Fathers become, once again, the foundation upon which America stands.

Quite frankly, I don't see anything they say as being worthy of such contempt that the media is heaping upon them. So what is wrong with this picture then? Is this not what it appears that most people really want?

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

Personally I think that anyone or any group the major media belittles or dismisses in a negative connotation should be taken seriously as being a positive step for this country. For instance, the "Tea Party" is getting an enormous amount of bad press these days, and will likely increase the closer we get to election day. But why is that? Here's the mission statement for the Tea Party:



Quite frankly, I don't see anything they say as being worthy of such contempt that the media is heaping upon them. So what is wrong with this picture then? Is this not what it appears that most people really want?

Problem with the Tea Party is that they're quickly straying from just a fiscal organization to a far right one getting infiltrated by social elements. You have all of these TP backed candidates taking draconian anti-immigrant positions, railing against gays, wanting to force their religion down everyone else's throat, and looking like all around hypocrites. They want government out of their lives, but have no problem injecting it into others.

Not to mention I think they look silly complaining about the levels of taxes considering they're at historical lows. Couple that to the fact that they showed themselves to be selfish brats who are incapable of governing as evidenced by the debt ceiling fiasco. If they're going to take us to a brink of government shutdown over every little thing, then they deserve all the bad press they get.

"My way or the highway" doesn't work in government. That goes for both sides. Problem is that politicians are only concerned about the next election and beating the other guy, even if its at the expense of the country.

The OWS movement has some valid points I think. The people complaining how they're $50k in student loan debt and w/o a job just need to suck it up. No one forced them to take on $50k in debt. Especially since so many of these idiots are getting "Black Lesbian Jazz Philosophy" majors in which there is absolutely no job market in the first place.

Them I have absolutely no sympathy for. Yes college is too $$$$, but get a degree with solid prospects, and only take out what you can afford, or take a year or two longer to graduate and work during college. That's simple enough. So that aspect of it I have little sympathy for.

However, they do have other valid points. The system has been rigged for sometime now to reward the rich at the expense of the rest. Trickle down hasn't resulted in trickle down at all, it has only resulted in a trickle up effect of wealth. The wealth gap is quickly heading towards that of a third world country and hasn't been this large since right before the great depression.

The elimination of the middle class so the people at top can get even more is quickly tanking this country. The biggest hurdle right now isn't spending or taxes, but demand. Businesses aren't hiring because there's no demand, a few % tax change isn't going to affect their decision to hire one way or the other.

Anyways, I've ranted long enough. Here are some worthwhile reads:

http://www.citybeat.com/cincinnati/article-23144-the-truth-about-taxes.html

Especially telling: http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/02/income-inequality-in-america-chart-graph

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

They make me sick.

They have some valid points.

 

[Rich Z]

But what exactly does the "occupy" crowd really want for solutions to the problems?

Quite frankly, I believe that our government has regulated and taxed our economy into the toilet. Companies have just pulled the plug on manufacturing by either moving their plants offshore, or just letting China build their products for them and simply slapping their label on that junk, er stuff to sell to us. So the Americans who used to have jobs in this country are left holding the bag because their jobs just moved elsewhere and left them flopping around like fish out of water. And the companies who moved their operations out of the country are now finding it tough to sell their products here because the cycle of workers earning money making one product to buy products from other manufacturers is now broken. Quite simply, you can't sell anything to people who are out of work and don't have an income. So those people who used to work for those companies now ceased being customers as well as employees.

And another thing. This stuff about "tax the rich" being the solution to our tax problems. Who the heck thought that one up? Is it really possible to even tax ALL the rich in this country 100 percent of their money and then that will solve the debt problems and everything will then be honky dory afterwards? How much money do they, as a group, HAVE? So yeah, try to float that bill in Congress and watch the rich in this country do the same thing the manufacturers have done. Simply move their money and themselves out of this country and then where will we be? Will the tune then change to "tax the middle class!"? So if everyone's tax rate then becomes 100 percent of income, what have we become at that point?

Quite frankly, in my opinion the government just needs to learn the accurate meaning of the word "budget". That word means to estimate how much money you expect to have coming in, and THAT sets the limit on how much money you can spend. Period.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

NYPD has orders to evict the protesters from the park they have made a headquarters (citing unsanitary conditions after all those people have been camping) and protesters are planning to take a stand, tomorrow morning.
I agree economy is in the toilet, that's the motivation that has driven these protesters, misguided or not. I'm hoping not too many get hurt in the eviction/ crackdown that is coming. For the most part it has been a peaceful demonstration...

 

[Susan]

This country needs a major overhaul in order to solve the problem. Unfortunately, there will be casualties, but that is the way of all wars. I ask that anyone interested take a look at what one local group is trying to do. These are just average Americans who have stumbled across the truth and are spreading the word. My husband is one of them.

Hernando County Assembly

 

[tsst]

It reminds me of the rioters in London "We're just showing the police and the rich that we can do what we want," "We're just taking back our taxes." No, you're not. You're breaking the law and blaming successful people for your failure.

IMO, Obama encourages class warfare because it suits his agenda.

I agree Nanci. I think many of the "occupy" crowd are just there to blame others. (not all)

....so the near historically high unemployment in the US is the fault of the unemployed? That makes absolutely no sense to me. I'm not sure how the nation's most economically vulnerable are responsible for job creation. Mind filling me in?

By continually voting in those that have made the decisions that destroyed the economy. I just watched videos of folks in the occupy crowd saying they will vote for Obama AGAIN even after four years of failure.

Also, this is the first I've heard of Obama encouraging class warfare. Can you show me where he's done so? Or what his agenda is that is supported by class warfare?

Also, protesting is illegal in the US now? When did that happen?

Seriously?!?! Obama has always been about class warfare! Even as a college student, local community organizer, and into his political career he has always been about redistribution of wealth and the “unfairness” of class inequity!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsapJii1rMY&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL2498590BB05E0BF8

As far as protesting, it's not illegal per say but our politicians have a way of twisting the law to meet their needs rather than those of the people. It's kind of akin to the abuse of the commerce clause...

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes

...as legal right to mandate a US citizen purchase a service or good.

Problem with the Tea Party is that they're quickly straying from just a fiscal organization to a far right one getting infiltrated by social elements. You have all of these TP backed candidates taking draconian anti-immigrant positions, railing against gays, wanting to force their religion down everyone else's throat, and looking like all around hypocrites. They want government out of their lives, but have no problem injecting it into others.

I agree with most of this statement. The gov should be out of personal lives as much as possible. It should include not only religion and gay rights but also the likes of the second and tenth amendments.

I am not sure I have heard many being anti-immigrant as much as being anti-illegal immigrant, which in my opinion is very vastly different.

Not to mention I think they look silly complaining about the levels of taxes considering they're at historical lows. Couple that to the fact that they showed themselves to be selfish brats who are incapable of governing as evidenced by the debt ceiling fiasco. If they're going to take us to a brink of government shutdown over every little thing, then they deserve all the bad press they get.

Most complain about the misuse of taxes already being collected. I agree with them. I don't want to pay more taxes for cash for clunkers, bridges to nowhere, condom studies in Africa, intoxication studies at college frat houses, forced healthcare wealth redistribution, etc etc etc. Politicians have proven for decades they cannot manage money and their idea for a fix is to get more money. Does that really make sense to anyone? If I make $1000 a month, but spend $1500 a month leaving me with the need to borrow the extra $500. At some point I have to stop spending the extra $500 or I am in serious financial trouble. I can't simply keep increasing my credit card limit! There are bright folks in DC so I can't believe they don't understand that. That leaves me with the scarier alternative, they just simply don't care!

Also as a side note the top 10% pay 70% of the taxes. The top 50% pay near 98% of the taxes. What does the POTUS believe a “fair” share is? Doesn’t the word share imply everyone has a stake or portion of responsibility? I suppose for some the bottom 50% paying only 2% is excessively more than their “fair” share of the burden!

"My way or the highway" doesn't work in government. That goes for both sides. Problem is that politicians are only concerned about the next election and beating the other guy, even if its at the expense of the country.

Bingo nail meet hammer.

The OWS movement has some valid points I think. The people complaining how they're $50k in student loan debt and w/o a job just need to suck it up. No one forced them to take on $50k in debt. Especially since so many of these idiots are getting "Black Lesbian Jazz Philosophy" majors in which there is absolutely no job market in the first place.

Them I have absolutely no sympathy for. Yes college is too $$$$, but get a degree with solid prospects, and only take out what you can afford, or take a year or two longer to graduate and work during college. That's simple enough. So that aspect of it I have little sympathy for.

I agree!

However, they do have other valid points. The system has been rigged for sometime now to reward the rich at the expense of the rest. Trickle down hasn't resulted in trickle down at all, it has only resulted in a trickle up effect of wealth. The wealth gap is quickly heading towards that of a third world country and hasn't been this large since right before the great depression.

The elimination of the middle class so the people at top can get even more is quickly tanking this country. The biggest hurdle right now isn't spending or taxes, but demand. Businesses aren't hiring because there's no demand, a few % tax change isn't going to affect their decision to hire one way or the other.

Not sure I understand the rigged part. Are you referring to politicians enabling corp America to do just what they have done and in some cases encouraging it? Demand may be the immediate hurdle but out of control spending is the much larger more damaging hurdle by far. Free trade instead of fair trade has killed long term demand IMO.

They have some valid points.

I have trouble following their points. It seems like fifty different messages from fifty different sources. What valid points have you picked up from them?

“I do think at a certain point you've made enough money” STFU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I absolutely agree Nanci. His perpetuation of class warfare as a painfully obvious campaign ploy is extremely divisive and disgusting.

Obama's performance notwithstanding, the Republican obstructionism certainly hasn't helped, especially when they held the world economy hostage during the debt ceiling debate. Notice that the debt ceiling was raised under Bush something like 19 times, so this was essentially the more extreme political right proving their willingness to collapse the American economy in order to extort the rest of the government.

Really?!?! Going forward you should leave off the R-word because obstructionism is ABSOLUTELY squarely on both sides of the isle. In their own words on this same topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzciR8cDX3g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyLmru6no4U&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL3B7091D5742EC9D5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VcwZaQknu4&feature=related

It's interesting how you feel that rampant profiteering is something that shouldn't be criticized, but Canada's economy is near the strongest in the world and our economy is heavily regulated by the government. It's also interesting that we have a very socially conservative government in place, one that is trying to push through policies that are similar to the US and as it happens our economy falters. I can tell you this - Canada was much better off with a centrist government that supported social programs and government regulation of the financial sector.

It's that last one you may want to look into as even Adam Smith, 'The Father of modern Capitalism" advocated for that regulation.

I'm sure your economy didn't benefit from a 400% trade surplus with the USA! And your country benefitting from that “rampant profiteering” is totally different because you’re centrist?!?!

This country rose from nothing to the world's leader economically, militarily, freedom wise, etc by being a constitutional republic with a largely capitalist economy. Our downfall has come with movement toward a centrist/socialist government with big gov over-regulation. Please don't bother to twist my words as reading I want no regulation. I just want minimal and correct regulation that is constitutionally sound. The farther we move to centrist the closer we get to being the next Greece only on an astronomical scale!

 

[tsst]

Here is an interesting take on the occupy movement.

WARNING: there is one instance of profanity at the end of the video. I spoke with a mod before posting and was advised to give this warning.