"Don't breed snakes if you want to make money!"

[Drizzt80]

Really?! I don't know why, but I've been thinking about this phrase quite a bit over the past couple of weeks. Is that truly accurate? Or what is really meant by the phrase itself? Let me preface any future comments or words with the fact that I too have been guilty of using this phrase in the past, but I don't think I can, or will, use it again in the future.

Here's some scenarios I've thought of concerning this phrase:
1. It indicates you won't (or at least it's very difficult to) make enough money to quit the day job. I agree.
2. You won't make much more money then to cover expenses. I agree as well. If you're accepting anything lower than that, why?! :shrugs:
3. It's a statement used to scare off un-determined (in desire/will) competition. Fair enough I suppose.

This is by no means a rant directed at any individual person. Just something I've been thinking about and figured I'd throw out there for discussion as I believe I've gotten a bit bored of late with the "what color is this?" threads . . .

Someone who's breeding their snakes, as in more than 1 or 2 pairings "for fun", in my humble opinion had better be attempting to make money!! I'd like to think that you're taking the steps necessary to cut costs and increase profits. Otherwise what's the point? To have fun? Why not just buy the morph you desire? You want the challenge of creating your own? See 1 or 2 pairings listed above . . . why do you need 14 or 15 other pairs? Personal satisfaction of producing your desired morph? Again, see 1 or 2 pairings listed above . . . why do you need 14 or 15 other pairs?

I just don't get the feeling that anyone at this site "acts or behaves rich" which is what it would take (again in my opinion) to dump money into an activity that sucks up your funds at every turn . . . especially now with the economy in it's downward spiral . . . without getting specific return at the other end to cover costs.

So, back to the phrase "Don't breed snakes if you want to make money". Is it overused? Is it inaccurate? Is it a "cover up"?! If the past few months are any indication, I think it's all of them. Lots of people selling their snakes and/or collections. Lots of people commenting that they're going to breed fewer pairs next season due to the economy. If it's truly a hobby of passion and not $$$, why the worry over the economy . . . ?!

:shrugs: I don't know. Just some thoughts running through my head bugging me. I had to get them out. Figured the Insiders Club was worthy of the discussion . . .

D80

 

[ghosthousecorns]

It's a cliche, I am probably just as guilty as anyone of using it... but, I have to admit that if I stop to think about it, it bugs me a little when people try to decree who should or should not breed their snakes, or why or whether there should be profit involved. Anybody who breeds and sells snakes to other people probably has no business judging if other people that may buy or have bought from them, also decide to breed and sell the snakes they bought.

I'm one of the people that said I plan on downsizing and have made a thread about it. But heck I would never do 14 or 15 pairs per year in the first place. The past couple of years I did four or five pairings. That's about as many as I personaly can take on. It's time consuming! And yes costs money. And my personal situation is that I am not working right now and as much as I have a passion for the hobby I don't have the money laying around to dump into it. It's easy to say "you shouldn't worry about money, do it for the love of the hobby" if you are not in a position of needing money. I think the people who are downsizing and such are facing a very real situation with the bad economy, not just using that as an excuse to get out. At least that's where I am coming from. And I know it's not just me from having had conversations with people in chat or by PM. Or just seeing the same for sale ads keep coming back and getting bumped with new lower prices, some of these ads are from good and well known and reputable breeders, but they still seem not to be getting many buyers. Yes, It is a slow year. A lot of morphs have dropped in value, and many people are broke. People whose collections paid for themselves or made a modest profit in the past few years and now aren't doing so THIS year...

What I would like to see is if people just breed the morphs they are really inspired by and not just produce a bunch of corns because they can. Like if you have the snakes to make some nice high end morphs, why would you also put a bunch of other more readily available morphs out on the market just because you can. I'd sure like to see fewer "oops I found eggs in my cohabbed snakes' tanks" threads, and also fewer people who only seem to care about one thing: "how much is it worth?" (I think these are the ones that are most likely to get the "don't breed snakes if it's to make money" lectures lol.)

Anyway what do I know, I am not working with anything really rare yet, I am working with ghosts, but I love my ghosts :shrugs: and yes I do want to downsize partly because of finances, but it's more to get back to the point where I enjoy this and am focused on a couple of pet projects instead of being spread thin by producing morphs when I know many others will make the same thing and the market seems to be already flooded...

 

[carol]

Well, I guess that phrase can have so many add ons that it's easier just to say "don't breed corns for the money".

I guess in reality it should be "don't breed corns for money if..."

... you want to make a lot of money.
... you want to make money right away.
... your only motivation to having multiple breeders is to make money.
... I'm sure there is more but it's late.

I've seen a couple of business that just started investing in tons of corns to raise and breed for the sole purpose of making money. I've also seen those businesses get a rude awakening and dump everything they had with in a couple years of breeding.

I would, and did, breed multiple pairs without breaking even. I do it because I love improving lines to my liking. I would have had multiple corns anyway so I started breeding because 1. It was a way to make some cash to almost break even and 2. I wanted the perfect Miami and the few breeders that had nice ones wouldn't let go of the perfect ones. It took years before I ever started making a profit, and since I had one bad year where I'd say I would be lucky if sales made up for half the costs of caring for the breeders. I also think we say "don't breed for the money" in a poor attempt to make people realize that all the money for each sale definitely does not go directly into our pocket. Almost every business endevor has business expenses that you wouldn't think of until you jump in.

 

[toyah]

I would say don't breed snakes if you want to make money. It saves disappointment:

1. You want to make money, so you breed snakes. You make money. You are happy.
2. You want to make money, so you breed snakes. You lose money. You are disappointed.
3. You want to breed snakes, so you breed snakes. You're happy. You make a bit of money - you're even more happy!
4. You want to breed snakes, so you breed snakes. You're happy. You lose money - you went into this knowing that your hobby might cost you money, so you're still happy!

I just don't get the feeling that anyone at this site "acts or behaves rich" which is what it would take (again in my opinion) to dump money into an activity that sucks up your funds at every turn . . . especially now with the economy in it's downward spiral . . . without getting specific return at the other end to cover costs.

I'm not rich, but I partake in activities that suck funds at every turn without getting a specific return at the other end to cover costs (to be honest, until I discovered the snake breeding community, I thought all animal breeding was done purely for the love of the animal, and that breeding would result in a loss of money, not a profit). But yes, I breed fancy rats for show and pet and sell them for way less than the "cost price" is - every litter costs me money. I do it purely because of a passion for the animals, which is the same reason I breed snakes.

Lots of people commenting that they're going to breed fewer pairs next season due to the economy. If it's truly a hobby of passion and not $$$, why the worry over the economy . . . ?!

Perhaps with the cost of everything rising, people worried they're going to make a loss now can't afford to make a loss? Or worried that if other people won't buy their babies, they'll be stuck with unsalable animals which means feeding more animals, and finding more space to keep them - so a bigger loss, and space some people don't have? I don't know, but it is possible that there's non-profit related reasons for not wanting to breed so much next year.

I personally am going ahead with all the projects I wanted to do next year ... but that's because I am my own main customer, any clutches I breed are specifically bred because *I* want to keep babies from them, and I can't see that we have any particular reason to put those projects off.

What I would like to see is if people just breed the morphs they are really inspired by and not just produce a bunch of corns because they can.

Definitely, 100% agree.

 

[Susan]

All of the good points have already been stated. It would be nice to break even, let alone make a small profit, every couple of years, but to be honest, I sink more money into my snakes than I probably should. However, the shear pleasure I get out of them, breeding included, is well worth it to me. Other people spend the same amount of time and money on their hobbies so I sure don't feel guilty about it. I don't have much else to reduce my stress level so if I purchase some new snakes, keep more hatchlings than I need and can't seem to be able to part with breeders that "no longer fit in my breeding plans", I really don't care because I spent some time with them today and didn't go on a shooting spree at the local McDonald's.

The phrase in question, to me, is strictly for those people that think only of the dollar signs they see for the high end morphs. The "Get Rich Quick" mentality of those people soon crashes into reality when Murphy does his best their first year breeding. The true corn snake breeder accepts the setback, pampers the one remaining hatchling, purchases an appropriate mate for it and stumbles forward for the next 3 years, dreaming of that special pippy once again.

 

[carol]

I have to add that it has been frustrating seeing how many people who are in their first or second year of breeding complain about not making money. Instead of realizing, "Wow, this is hard work! Those long term breeders really have some determination and love for the hobby to hang in there." They seem to have the "Why does all the bad stuff happen to me when all the other breeders are so lucky?". I've worked hard and spent years fine tuning breeding methods and making a reputation, and money was not the main driving factor in that. I don't understand why some younger breeders think they can just fall into success right off the bat. I guess it would be better to tell them that the first few years of breeding are all a learning experience and not to expect to see much money during that time. But when you are dealing with, "Why can't I make money on my first clutch" mentality, it's easier just to say "don't breed to make money".
I also spent a fair amount of money investing in solid breeding stock. To me it was worth spending more money to have stock that have potential to improve the line and not just perpetuate it. I looked for the best stock and not the best price. I see a lot of breeders to be always looking for a steal, not a bargin, a steal! They completely expect to pay bottom dollar and charge top. This is America, I understand, LOL. I guess the fact that it's living, feeling, animals that are being produced without a passion that gets to me.

 

[El Jefe]

The "Get Rich Quick" mentality of those people soon crashes into reality when Murphy does his best their first year breeding. The true corn snake breeder accepts the setback, pampers the one remaining hatchling, purchases an appropriate mate for it and stumbles forward for the next 3 years, dreaming of that special pippy once again.

Yep....I think that really is the down side. Too many people in and out because the big project didn't work and that is what they were counting on. There is a HUGE number of people that came in for the love of one snake only to buy a bunch of others and quickly become overwhelmed and leave everything.

 

[crackerhead]

I breed snakes for a hobby. If I turn a profit or break even, great. I hate the business side of the hobby. I had to quit Girl Scouts because I had problems selling the cookies! If I could I would give the hatchlings away. I'm in this for the fun of genetics. I love breeding season and I anticipate it like a kid waits for Christmas morning. The whole monetary aspect of the hobby is the one true downside for me. I know people whose whole year hinges on whether the breeding season was profitable or not. That's just too much pressure. I have a snake budget. I follow the rule that all snake purchases/expenses must come out of that account. Some years are better than others but I always shoot to break even, at the very least. Could I make money? Maybe. Enough to live on? It depends on your definition of a living wage. Plus I don't want to work that hard and my husband isn't that patient. Turning a profit on live animals is always a gamble. The time and effort necessary to make that profit is huge and IMHO rarely figured into the overall profits/losses made in a year. I say do it for the love of it. If you break even or make a little money over time all the better.
Terri

 

[Drizzt80]

Great points by all! Exactly the kind of discussion I was looking for . . .

A few items that stood out for me:

I'd sure like to see fewer "oops I found eggs in my cohabbed snakes' tanks" threads, and also fewer people who only seem to care about one thing: "how much is it worth?"

I guess in reality it should be "don't breed corns for money if..."
... your only motivation to having multiple breeders is to make money.

I would have had multiple corns anyway so I started breeding because 1. It was a way to make some cash to almost break even and 2. I wanted the perfect Miami and the few breeders that had nice ones wouldn't let go of the perfect ones. It took years before I ever started making a profit,

I'm not rich, but I partake in activities that suck funds at every turn without getting a specific return at the other end to cover costs

I agree with this point, but the difference is that when hunting season is over, my guns sit in the closet, they don't take further care during the year. Same goes for any other hobby. For lack of a better expression, they can be turned on and off. You can't turn snake care on and off . . . short term suspension during brumation, yes, turned off, no.

Or worried that if other people won't buy their babies, they'll be stuck with unsalable animals which means feeding more animals, and finding more space to keep them - so a bigger loss, and space some people don't have? I don't know, but it is possible that there's non-profit related reasons for not wanting to breed so much next year.

Exactly. It's not for profit per se, but it is for savings . . . which affects the bottom line.

However, the shear pleasure I get out of them, breeding included, is well worth it to me. Other people spend the same amount of time and money on their hobbies so I sure don't feel guilty about it.

The true corn snake breeder accepts the setback, pampers the one remaining hatchling, purchases an appropriate mate for it and stumbles forward for the next 3 years, dreaming of that special pippy once again.

Couldn't agree more!

I have to add that it has been frustrating seeing how many people who are in their first or second year of breeding complain about not making money. Instead of realizing, "Wow, this is hard work!

Along with everything else in your post . . . great!

Too many people in and out because the big project didn't work and that is what they were counting on. There is a HUGE number of people that came in for the love of one snake only to buy a bunch of others and quickly become overwhelmed and leave everything.

"Flash in the pans".

Great thoughts! I love it.
D80

 

[Drizzt80]

I have a snake budget. I follow the rule that all snake purchases/expenses must come out of that account. Some years are better than others but I always shoot to break even, at the very least. Could I make money?

Sounds like the way I run things around here.

I wonder if this might not sum it up:
1. Hobbyists. Snake owners.
2. Hobbyist Breeders. Snake owners with one or two breeding pairs "for fun".
3. Hobbyist Breeder/Suppliers. Snake owners that breed "for fun" and also to break even at worst. Make a little extra spending money at best.
4. Breeders. Snake owners that breed to put food on the table and pay the bills.
5. "Flash in the Pans". Snake owners that are looking for a quick and easy buck . . . and don't find it!

:shrugs:
D80

 

[RobbiesCornField]

I breed snakes for the fun of the hobby, and in an attempt to gain a little back from my investment. I know I'll probably never break even (right now, I've racked up over $8,000 for my snakes and their supplies). But as far as breeding them for the hobby, I only breed the snakes that I enjoy, with one exception for this year. I'm going to do a hybrid (oh no! evul hybird!) between my Japanese rat snake and my Bairds rat snake. I think it'll be an interesting project, and I want to see what happens with it! If I were truly breeding snakes for profit, I'd have a LOT more breeding pairs, and less babies that I have to raise up. I generally do enjoy raising a snake up. I already know that out of all of my planned clutches/litters this year, there will be at least 1 or 2 keepers per clutch, with the exception of the hybrid clutch. Almost all of those will be keepers because I want to see how they do, and find out if they're fertile, and find the best keeping conditions for them I can before making them available.

 

[Rich Z]

Oh, I believe you can make money off of breeding corn snakes. But there is a catch. A BIG one. You will have to dedicate your LIFE to the business. It is not something you can do on a scale that would be profitable if you want to do it part time.

Be prepared to give up vacations, social contacts, friends and family, because you will be TOO busy taking care of the animals to be concerned about such things.

Yeah, sure, maybe you can hire someone just as dedicated and reliable as you are to take care of things while you are away, but don't count on that being the case.

Furthermore, can you stick it out long enough to become well known and have a good reputation? There are no short cuts to this. I've been doing this for 30 years now and would say that it took about half of that to where "SerpenCo" became even fairly well known. Yeah, maybe someone with a lot of money going into this can do a media and publicity blitz to get their name out there, but you still have to work at that reputation part.

Then once you have worked hard getting a good reputation, you have to work just as hard to KEEP it.

Another factor that probably many, many people don't think about is that the job entails a LOT of physical labor. Not the strenuous type, but the tedious type. How long will you be able to keep up with the demands when you get older? I'm DEFINITELY feeling the strain on my wrists from opening the containers to feed baby snakes every night. When I was younger, standing at the work station to do this for several hours at a shot was no big deal. Now it is GETTING to be a big deal. You find yourself hoping your back will hold out for just a little while longer so you try ignoring the pain, or popping some pain pills so you can stay on schedule.

Sooner or later the day will come when you have to just stand back and re-evaluate the situation and determine if you CAN continue doing this sort of business, not really whether or not you WANT to. Can your business survive if you go into the hospital and get incapacitated for 6 months? If it cannot survive, what will you do if that happens? Yeah, maybe your spouse would be willing to take up the slack, but if he or she is already stretched to the limits helping out with the business, are you going to put him or her in the hospital as well with a nervous breakdown or exhaustion?

Obviously these are all things that are running through my mind lately that many of you will not be facing anytime soon, but could be if you stick this out long enough. This spring I had a wakeup call when I went into the emergency room with appendicitis. Connie had to leave me there so she could harvest the eggs from about a hundred females so they wouldn't dry up and die. I was able to get back into the swing of things pretty quickly, since newer techniques with this kind of surgery were not as drastic as they used to be. Had it happened earlier and I been laid up for 6 weeks or more, things could have been pretty grim.

Anyway, went a bit off topic, but hopefully I gave some food for thought.

 

[wade]

Great comments from several people. Rich has taken a hobby and made it a job. Is it still fun Rich. Better than sitting at a desk? Do you resent us little guys who are competing for your bread and butter?

How much profit is there? If you practice some creative bookkeeping you can show a profit. I don’t include the cost of my snake racks. They cost quite a bit of money. I don’t figure in the cost of the room they occupy or the light bill or the heat and cooling. I raise my own mice so they are free, right. I don’t figure in the cost of the mouse racks or the bales of aspen shavings or the bags of mouse food. I don’t figure in the cost to air conditions my garage to 75* all summer because the mice can’t take the heat. Other than that the mice are free. The freezer I bought isn’t really a snake expense.

I am involved in horse racing. Now if you want a really fun hobby that can really make you some money, that is the way to go. In 1985 I had a horse that won big time. She won $65,000 in one race. I sold her for 10 times what I paid for her. I have spent all that and more on losers. Snakes are cheap.

It is important to me to sell the babies. I really enjoy raising snakes and working with the genetics and seeing the babies hatch. But I can’t keep them all. I couldn’t allow myself to do this if I thought all the babies were going to die. I need to sell them to people who will make a reasonable attempt to raise them. You can’t give them away. If they are free they have no value and people won’t take care of them. If you sell them too cheap, it hurts the market and other breeders. But I need to sell them. It really has nothing to do with making a profit. The mice are free anyway.

 

[Rich Z]

Great comments from several people. Rich has taken a hobby and made it a job. Is it still fun Rich.

Somewhat. There are a lot of things that are fun that I could do without the body complaining when I was younger. The fun part is looking at the babies when they hatch out. Everything else is getting to be a real chore.

Better than sitting at a desk?

It depends. With a desk job I would be able to stop work at 5pm and have the rest of the evening to do what I wanted to do. Also would be getting vacations and weekends off. None of that happens now.

Do you resent us little guys who are competing for your bread and butter?

No, not really. Many of you are working with corns that likely originated from my stock. Many are doing projects that I don't have the time nor stamina to do. When we do the Daytona Beach Expo, most of my sales go to other vendors, or people who intend to be vendors the following year. So when business is good for the "little guys", business will also be good for me.

Heck, if I resented it, do you really think I would allow you all to post FOR SALE ads on this site?

You guys are all going to be keeping things going when I am out of this. I just hope you show me pictures of the new stuff that pops up for you.

 

[carol]

Great post Rich!

Maybe it should be "Don't breed snakes if you want to make fast or easy money." People just don't realize how many years and how much work it takes to even turn a profit. The higher you want that profit to be, the more you have to sacrifice.

 

[Drizzt80]

Thanks Wade and Rich for your insights! And Carol . . . I don't want the discussion to end, but that's quite possibly the best way to sum it all up!! Especially the last line.

Maybe it should be "Don't breed snakes if you want to make fast or easy money." People just don't realize how many years and how much work it takes to even turn a profit. The higher you want that profit to be, the more you have to sacrifice.

Keep the thoughts/comments coming!
D80

 

[Chip]

I know I have been guilty of saying this statement. For me, it really comes down to personal experience. I have done pretty well with a few species, but most don't even pay for their mice. I bought womas for $2,600 a pair several years back and by the time mine were old enough to produce, baby males were selling for as low as $500. And mine didn't produce their first year. Or second! I'll have to produce a ton of babies over the life of these to recoup my investment in the original animals. On one hand, I didn't buy them to make money, I wanted to work with the species. But I did intend to offset their cost by producing some.
It's always a big investment to get on the ground floor of any project. And by the time you have babies for sale, lots of other people might as well. When I told a young man "don't get into breeding corn snakes to make money" a few weeks back, my point was, not to get false expectations. Especially with lower-end animals, shipping costs are prohibitive for selling individuals. I don't want to talk anyone out of breeding snakes, it's a great hobby! I just know the math in my head vs. reality was a lot different.

 

[bitsy]

Great posts and good points all round. I guess I've gone from Breeder Type 2 (a couple of pairs, breding for fun) to 3 (a few pairs, breeding for fun and to break even with maybe a bit extra as a bonus) over the past couple of years.

My contribution is around this:

Lots of people commenting that they're going to breed fewer pairs next season due to the economy. If it's truly a hobby of passion and not $$$, why the worry over the economy . . . ?!

My worry is that the end result will be a lot of unwanted/unsaleable hatchlings ending up as King food, because the potential snake-buying public will be cutting back on unnecessary spending.

However, this is a conversation that I've had with the reptile shop I supply. They've seen no drop in demand for Corns over the past few months and are relatively upbeat about next season. Their view is that people need something to make them feel good during hard times, and that pets increase quality of life - Corns at an especially low cost when compared to a cat or dog.

 

[Drizzt80]

Their view is that people need something to make them feel good during hard times, and that pets increase quality of life - Corns at an especially low cost when compared to a cat or dog.

Very interesting viewpoint/outlook and one that I can't really disagree with!!

D80

 

[cornmorphs]

wow, what a load of great info.
on most of what Rich Z says,i agree..
its a lot of hard work, and i only have about 200 corns.
If i could manage this full time and it would pay i would have done it years ago.
I know i have taken in a lot of money at times for hatchlings, but this year for instance (like most people) i am way down on my costings.
I really can only manage to do this if it pays for itself.
It obviously took along time to get to this stage, i wonder how much longer, how mnay more snakes i would need to breed etc to get to the stage where i could live off of it?? i dunno
i do enjoy the corns, but I agree with rich, they can be a chore for sure.. but i do also love those times of hatchlings and trying to produce new things, or just something i havent produced before.