stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

stupid breeder? -.- You really are asking for it.

ok i shouldn't of called people stupid i'm very sorry that was out of order.
i'm just trying to get my head around the ultra thing maybe i'm the stupid one.

can a Moderator please lock my thread thank you

Heheh, no problem . Friends?

We don't lock threads here. This isn't a censored forum.

asnakecalled? said:

i've just been reading how ultra is not corn snake its gray rat so my question to you all is why breed something to a corn and pass it off as a pure corn, why not just tell the truth and tell people they are hybrids. and what else in the corn snake morphs are hybrids with other snake species (i'm not on about the stuff we already know about i mean the other morphs i mean for all we know a Palmetto might be part king snake)

now i'm going to sell all my corns if that what they are, i think ill start a collection of old world rat snakes at least i will know they are pure and not crossed with any thing you want,
i think the american government are right they should make all reptile owners register there animals so we now who's breeding what.

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I'm sorry, but I must have missed it, but when was that actually PROVEN?

just my humble opinion, I can see breeders not liking being called stupid, but I really don't think the OP meant it quite like it reads. More of a that's so stupid idea, just like people say all of the time. I really don't think he intended to hurt your feelings. That's from a corn lover who doesn't breed! And just picked up an ultramel. I love them, pure corn or mixed corn. I'm fairly new and it took me quite a while to know that several morphs are mixed. Actually, I didn't know about golddust. Probably others I'm not aware of too.

I do apologize as I was a bit harsh yesterday. It was NOT a good day and my irritation from a situation at work spilled over onto the forum. However, IMO, if someone is that concerned about their snakes being pure, then they need to not only do their homework, but ask as many questions as possible before buying. I do not hide information. My breeding records are available to all in my personal forum, every snake I sell comes with complete ACR information for registration, and if you ask me, I will provide anyone with as much information about anything related to my snakes as I have. I will NOT, however, spoon-feed people. If you don't know the genetics of a golddust, then you really don't care about the hybrid theory surrounding it when you buy it. When I list a clutch of hatchlings as available for sale that are numbered sequentially and they go in this order: ...#24 ultramel motley het stripe, #25 ultramel anery stripe, #26 amel stripe, #27 ultramel motley het stripe, #28 amel motley het stripe, #29 ultramel stripe... you can pretty much guarantee that the amel stripe and amel motley are from a pairing with ultra in it. And as I said before, when in doubt ASK.

I'm sorry, but I must have missed it, but when was that actually PROVEN?

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I think the comment arises from this recent discussion:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120776

It was pointed out that Don S is stating absolutely on his website, that the originator of Ultras has confirmed that they were derived from non-Corns and are definitely hybrids.

As I said in that thread, I'm not aware that the originator of Ultra has ever made such a statement in public. Doesn't mean there's not been some behind-the-scenes discussion though.

Susan said:

I do apologize as I was a bit harsh yesterday. It was NOT a good day and my irritation from a situation at work spilled over onto the forum. However, IMO, if someone is that concerned about their snakes being pure, then they need to not only do their homework, but ask as many questions as possible before buying. I do not hide information. My breeding records are available to all in my personal forum, every snake I sell comes with complete ACR information for registration, and if you ask me, I will provide anyone with as much information about anything related to my snakes as I have. I will NOT, however, spoon-feed people. If you don't know the genetics of a golddust, then you really don't care about the hybrid theory surrounding it when you buy it. When I list a clutch of hatchlings as available for sale that are numbered sequentially and they go in this order: ...#24 ultramel motley het stripe, #25 ultramel anery stripe, #26 amel stripe, #27 ultramel motley het stripe, #28 amel motley het stripe, #29 ultramel stripe... you can pretty much guarantee that the amel stripe and amel motley are from a pairing with ultra in it. And as I said before, when in doubt ASK.

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^^^ This is true, she really does do that!!

Rich Z said:

I'm sorry, but I must have missed it, but when was that actually PROVEN?

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i don't think it has yet but how would we know some people are saying there pure and others have labeled them as gray rat crosses so my question is, i've just bread my pair of golddusts motley het anery the babys will be Gold Dust Motley, Ultra Caramel Motley, Butter Motley, Xanthic Snow Motley, Ultramel Anery Caramel Motley and Ultra Caramel Anery Motley.
so what do i sell the babys as are they corns or are they hybrids or are they possible hybrids. and if they are hybrids 2 of them dont carry the ultra gene so are they hybrids ?
someone please help because i'm at a loss and i'm kind of new to breeding this has confused me and i don't want it to confuse other new breeders

The originator - Mike Shiver had told Don that he used a "grey snow" to start the Ultra line. Due to the admission of the original breeder to crossing rat into the line, Don has decided to label all derivatives of this line thusly. I suppose it's up to the individual if you 'want' to believe the breeder or not. I personally feel that it is mute as this point.

How many tens of generations are we away from the grey rat, anyway? Does it even matter? Can you guarantee any WC corn, ever, was 100% P. guttatus?

There seems to be a whole lot of misinformation and Chinese whispers about what Mike Shivers did or didn't say he has been quoted as saying he made two crosses one was corn x white oaks phase grey rat,and also a corn x corn,and couldn't remember which cross resulted in the Ultra gene.
It has also been said that he was very disenfranchised with the American Corn snake Hobby to the point where he threw his PC or records or whatever in a lake so no one would ever know.
Don seems to have chosen to take a conservative approach ( understandably ) to protect his reputation should they eventually be discovered to be of hybrid origin and to label them as such.
The other obvious problem is that they have now been around for some time and have been crossed back into corns many many times so they must now be around 99.9% corn,anyone who knows nothing of these theories or hasn't done the research probably just isn't bothered.
My own Ultra/Ultramel progeny are labelled as just that Ultra/Ultramel none show any hybrid markers and I'm always more than happy to discuss this and the known ancestry of my lines and usually my purchasers are just happy to have a healthy beautiful looking new corn.
Almost every morph produced seems to take some stick about whether or not it's a hybrid or not and produce similar conversations and posts on forums,to me it's a case of if you like it dip your toe and acknowledge the facts first and the theories later,if you do breed and sell the off spring label them as Ultra/Ultramel and be open about your knowledge and understanding of the situation and your lines it's then up to the buyer to make their choice.

Nanci said:

Does it even matter?

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Yes! for me and a ton of other breeders here in europe and hopefully also in the US.

Nanci said:

Can you guarantee any WC corn, ever, was 100% P. guttatus?

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No, but does that fact make ultra and stuff more pure than before?

I personally would NOT buy a corn which has ultra in its background. I don't care if it's one or ten generations back in the past - I don't want them. Meanwhile it is becoming harder and harder to buy an amel, caramel, butter or whatever which are for sure not ultra related. Everybody can breed, keep and create ultra morphs, no problem, but please please please label them as ultra related. Not only the ultra stuff but also the NONultra byproducts like butters, fires, amels, etc.

If all breeders make an exeption for ultra (of course, most did and do it), we all could sell also "real" hybrids without labeling them as such. That wouldn't make a difference....who wants that? Not me! I'm sure I'm not the only one .:shrugs:

It is pretty disturbing that 90% of the breeders/keepers make a big exeption for ultra. Since I heard for the first time of Ultra, I heard those hybrid rumors as often as I've never heard of any other morph - is it only the fact it acts codom to amel that anybody hikes his shoulders or why is this the common practice?

Again, everyone can have, buy, sell, breed and keep ultras. I don't have a problem with hybrids or stuff which is most likely hybrid, I just have a problem when breeders don't label them as what they are. Beginners often don't have a hint of knowledge of the whole colour morph thing, those are the real distributors of that stuff but what should they do when they buy a "corn" from a breeder who doesn't tell the buyer that ultra might be something which is not guaranteed "pure". That is the problem I see here in Europe and also in the States. Doesn't make me more enthusiastic for this hobby, stuff like that really spoils the party. :shrugs:

asnakecalled? said:

i don't think it has yet but how would we know some people are saying there pure and others have labeled them as gray rat crosses so my question is, i've just bread my pair of golddusts motley het anery the babys will be Gold Dust Motley, Ultra Caramel Motley, Butter Motley, Xanthic Snow Motley, Ultramel Anery Caramel Motley and Ultra Caramel Anery Motley.
so what do i sell the babys as are they corns or are they hybrids or are they possible hybrids. and if they are hybrids 2 of them dont carry the ultra gene so are they hybrids ?
someone please help because i'm at a loss and i'm kind of new to breeding this has confused me and i don't want it to confuse other new breeders

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Good luck seperating the ultramel anery caramels from the ultra anery caramels and caramel snow in your potential clutch.

I produced my 1st Xanthic snows in 2006 with out any ultra/ ultramel connection. That line continues today.

(I just asked the questions, I didn't state my position...)

I can't believe how these genetics threads have turned out in the couple months... I was Impressed with most but like this one I just shake my head, out of all the problems/questions/lies/truths to bring up in the corn snake community why bring back ultra which I remember was case closed years ago. I respect Don. but however labeling them as hybrids now when most breeders will not join this ban wagon, feels like beating a dead horse to me. There is much to be discovered with some of the genes we have out now that hasn't gotten the good scrutiny they deserve. I am in favor of moving forward not back.

JimGERcream said:

I personally would NOT buy a corn which has ultra in its background. I don't care if it's one or ten generations back in the past - I don't want them. Meanwhile it is becoming harder and harder to buy an amel, caramel, butter or whatever which are for sure not ultra related. Everybody can breed, keep and create ultra morphs, no problem, but please please please label them as ultra related. Not only the ultra stuff but also the NONultra byproducts like butters, fires, amels, etc.

If all breeders make an exeption for ultra (of course, most did and do it), we all could sell also "real" hybrids without labeling them as such. That wouldn't make a difference....who wants that? Not me! I'm sure I'm not the only one .:shrugs:

It is pretty disturbing that 90% of the breeders/keepers make a big exeption for ultra. Since I heard for the first time of Ultra, I heard those hybrid rumors as often as I've never heard of any other morph - is it only the fact it acts codom to amel that anybody hikes his shoulders or why is this the common practice?

Again, everyone can have, buy, sell, breed and keep ultras. I don't have a problem with hybrids or stuff which is most likely hybrid, I just have a problem when breeders don't label them as what they are. Beginners often don't have a hint of knowledge of the whole colour morph thing, those are the real distributors of that stuff but what should they do when they buy a "corn" from a breeder who doesn't tell the buyer that ultra might be something which is not guaranteed "pure". That is the problem I see here in Europe and also in the States. Doesn't make me more enthusiastic for this hobby, stuff like that really spoils the party. :shrugs:

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well said but i guess ill have to keep working with them until i find out one way or another, but label every thing as ultra based and let people make there own mind up.

Tom Tuttle said:

Good luck seperating the ultramel anery caramels from the ultra anery caramels and caramel snow in your potential clutch.

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thanks for the good look it was near impossible in the clutch last year that's why i ended up buying the adults when the person who bread them first could not decide and gave up.

Nanci said:

How many tens of generations are we away from the grey rat, anyway? Does it even matter? Can you guarantee any WC corn, ever, was 100% P. guttatus?

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So, back when Rosy Corns were P. g. rosaceae, if they were bred with P. g. g., then those offspring would have been hybrids, but now that Rosy has been re-taxonomized and is a P. g. g., it is okay to breed them together.

So, an old cross would be hybrid stock, but a new cross would not be.

Alternately, P. g. slowinski, now, if bred to P. g. g. , produces hybrids, but 15 years ago when it was still a P. g. g., the breedings of that with other P. g. g. would not be hybrids.

Right?

Seems like in Europe they only want pure bred snakes, just like they only wanted pure bred humans in the 1940's
Maybe in 70 or so more years they will be more tolerant?