Is it just me or has anyone else noticed...

the similarities between the Sunrise mutants and the Mandarins?

I wish I had pics of the Sunrise babies. Does anyone else remember seeing them at Daytona? They started off life looking like colorful Snows and eventually gained color as they grew. Im not jumping the gun on this by all means, but is it possible we sent some of these to Germany, and they were out crossed to normals or other color mutants producing Kastanies?
Again just a thought.

I don't know enough about the sunrise morph (barely anything, in fact), and am barely a novice concerning the Kastanie morph to make any sort of judgement or form an opinion about the possibilities of the same gene being involved. You may even need to through toffee and maybe buf into a discussion like this...and I'll sit back, learn, and hope it stays civil.

I just saw them on VMS' page the other night. I'm with Susan, I haven't seen enough or know enough about them, or Kastanies, to even have an opinion :shrugs:

Does anyone have a link or some pics of adults? I just know the baby pics of vmsherp. thanks.

TBH I haven't seen enough examples, of adult Mandarins or Sunrises, to have a good sample base in which to make an "educated opinion" (breeding trials aside), as to whether or not they are the same, but do have some "thoughts".

There does seem to be some resemblance in that both the Sunrise and the Mandarin are born looking, more or less, like Snows ... then developing more & more color (Amel).
However ...

If the Sunrise and Mandarin were the same, it doesn't account for the white speckling/scales that the Sunrise develops and the Mandarin does not (as far as I know).

Also, thus far (key words are "thus far" ), adult Sunrises ... while "Sunglow like" ... seem to have a cooler (vs. warmer) red, and red-orange, color.
Of course, various factors can account for this difference (as far as coloring), and who knows if things will change, but it is a wee bit of a difference at this point in time.

So ...:shrugs:

I wonder why there are no pics of adult sunrise corns available ath the site, though the link says so, and they are advertised suggesting they are proven. If they are proven there should at least be one adult available, right? Further, usually new genes are quite expensive, especially combined with others... hwhy are these sold for 250 only?

The trait/morph has proven out as inheritable (recessive).
Photos, of adult/s, do exist. I have one, of an adult, myself (not of Sean's) ... but it is not mine to share (would need to get permission).
Why Sean has not posted photos, of his adults, I do not know.:shrugs:

OK, that's good to hear.

2012 Sunrise Corn

2012 Sunrise Corn

The only similarity I see is during the 1st couple months.:shrugs:

Tom Tuttle said:

The only similarity I see is during the 1st couple months.:shrugs:

Click to expand...

That is where the primary similarity lies. Otherwise ... :shrugs:
I am still a bit dubious that the Sunrise Amel and Mandarin are the same. However, I guess time (& concrete proof) will tell one way or the other.

Here are some pics of a Sunrise Amel Motley pair that I have. My pics may not be the best since they were just "quickie pics".
I have really been enjoying watching their changes. Just wish I had been taking pics all along. Also love the deep red that has been coming in.
Since they are not even a year old, speckling has not come in yet. The speckling should come in due time.

The first two pics are of the male. First showing what he looked like, in 2011 a bit after hatching/shedding (not my pic), and the second pic is what he looks like now (I took the pic today).

The 3rd & 4th pics are of the female. Again, first showing what she looked like in 2011 (not my pic) and, then, what she looks like now (I took took the pic today).

thanks for sharing those pics. Would be neat to see them in another year to see what if any changes take place.

These pics show my male, a stripe and the female a motley stripe. I've used arrows to point out where they're just now starting to show the loss of color in their stripes. I've seen their older sibling and they are smokin'! Bright reddish-orange with white stripes! 1/2

the adult can be seen in this post
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1346892&postcount=5

It's an easy test in my opinion. Just do some trial breedings with a kastanie or two.

Eeeewwwwww..... fungus snakes

So I did a test breeding to see if my theory was correct. Kastanie (Het Fire) X Sunrise (see pic) and the anticipation is killing me! The eggs are at day 63 right now so literally any minute we'll see the results.

So, if these turn out to be Kastanie/Mandarin what should we call them? Do we stop calling them Sunrise and just call them Mandarins? Or are the colors so different that we call them what they've always been labeled? Kinda like different Amel variants. Both are Amels but one is a Candy Cane the other Reverse Okeetee.

My theory was that maybe Kastanie/Mandarins stay more orange than red because of line breeding and/or origin. A lot of the Kastanies here came from RosyBloods/ Keys variants. Could this explain the color difference?
I had a friend years ago pick up a pair of Sunrise mutants at an expo, and I told him to breed it out to a classic to see what the Non-Amel version would look like, but he never did, as he just wanted to produce Homozygous animals to sell I asked the breeder of those Sunrise Corns if any had made a trip to Germany? His reply, heck I wholesaled those things to Germany every year! HUH!!??

I believe Don did a test breeding between Java Stripe and Sunrise Motley and from what I see there is NO difference between the two! They even developed the same white flecking in the Motley form commonly seen on adult Sunrise Motley mutants. Is this a clue that this gene is everywhere just playing a joke on us? The Kastanie gene IS highly variable. I hate to bring it up but Mahogany also is very similar.

Anyway just wanted to ressurect this thread because hatching time is so close, and wanted everyone's opinion on what to call them if they turn out to be Kastanies/Mandarins. And if it's not the same gene at work here, we're gonna have a bigger mess because I don't know how the heck I'll be able to tell the F2s apart LOL!

Can't wait!!

I've been very much looking forward to seeing the results of this pairing for awhile now!

So, when I first saw the Sunrise Corns back in the late 90s, I thought, man I really wanna breed these to a Classic, hold some babies back, breed those together, and see the non-Amel version of this morph. Never did get the chance to do it though

Then a few years ago when I first saw Kastanies I said BINGO! This is the Non Amel version of those "Hypoerythristic Amels" (Sunrise) I saw years ago!!!

It wasn't until this year that I was able to prove my suspicions were correct. It seemed so obvious that it was the same gene.

Well we have an answer now. Here is the result of breeding a Kastanie (Het Amel Diffused) to a Sunrise.

Enjoy the Kastanie and Mandarin babies that just hatched today! :dancer: