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Confessions of a hybridizer/Snake Lover

Shiari said:
Wall... of text... painful.
Click to expand...
Agreed. 100%. Muddling through it was painful...

As for the OP...I'm not sure I get where you're coming from. I've been around this forum for a long time, with many long breaks in between countless posts. I've made friends and enemies, gained and lost respect, and learned more than I could have hoped for.

Regarding hybrids...it's not in what you ask, but how you ask it...

There are known hybrids and intergrades, such as Creamsicles, Rootbeers(both intergrades with emoryi) and the obvious CornDuran-type hybrids. There are suspected, but unproven, intergrades, such as the Ultra line of hypo(has this been satisfactorily resolved yet?). And there are known "pure" lines, such as the majority of simple-recessive traits in corns.

If someone posts a photo of an amel, and you ask if it is a Creamsicle, you have to accept the answer given from the owner as to it's purity. Are there people that lie about it? Probably. But it certainly isn't "normal", meaning it isn't common or rampant in the community. Most people try to be honest in their dealings, at least in this forum of the snake community. If you don't accept the answer given, and continue to interject your "questions"(which really become accusations, once the initial question is answered counter to your beliefs), it can become infuriating. Very few people on this site get infuriated over a simple question of "Is that a hybrid?". What upsets people is hidden accusations, and the implication that they are lying.

Long story short...there are dishonest people in the snake community, just as the rest of humanity. Sure, there are people that attempt to hide impurities in their bloodlines. But people in this forum, at least in my experience, tend to be as forthright and honest in their interactions as possible.

Nothing wrong with making an inquiry in an effort to learn more about the genetic traits you see here. There IS something wrong with publicly accusing someone of lying or intentionally hiding impurities without any real, solid evidence.

This is the first post of yours I've seen, so I don't pretend to know your intentions nor your posting history. I can say, however, that your original post starts of with a sense of curiosity, and quickly drifts towards a feeling of accusation and judgement of intentional dishonesty.

Just my humble opinion... :smash:
 
nanci i think it was more of an implied thing with the talking down.

i'm just learning too and as with everything i do, i obsess. last night was another night where i only three hours of sleep because i'm up all night running ideas through corncalc and doing searches for answers.

i feel hybrids have their place, if you like them, buy/breed them. if you don't like them, don't buy/breed them. i for one am sick of the round and round threads and posts on the subject.
 
Aren't we all??

I think it's fair that, if you want to discuss hybrids, start a thread. Don't butt into a person's for sale thread, or photo thread of corn morphs, or whatever, and bring it up out of the blue.
 
tyflier said:
Agreed. 100%. Muddling through it was painful...

As for the OP...I'm not sure I get where you're coming from. I've been around this forum for a long time, with many long breaks in between countless posts. I've made friends and enemies, gained and lost respect, and learned more than I could have hoped for.

Regarding hybrids...it's not in what you ask, but how you ask it...

There are known hybrids and intergrades, such as Creamsicles, Rootbeers(both intergrades with emoryi) and the obvious CornDuran-type hybrids. There are suspected, but unproven, intergrades, such as the Ultra line of hypo(has this been satisfactorily resolved yet?). And there are known "pure" lines, such as the majority of simple-recessive traits in corns.

If someone posts a photo of an amel, and you ask if it is a Creamsicle, you have to accept the answer given from the owner as to it's purity. Are there people that lie about it? Probably. But it certainly isn't "normal", meaning it isn't common or rampant in the community. Most people try to be honest in their dealings, at least in this forum of the snake community. If you don't accept the answer given, and continue to interject your "questions"(which really become accusations, once the initial question is answered counter to your beliefs), it can become infuriating. Very few people on this site get infuriated over a simple question of "Is that a hybrid?". What upsets people is hidden accusations, and the implication that they are lying.

Long story short...there are dishonest people in the snake community, just as the rest of humanity. Sure, there are people that attempt to hide impurities in their bloodlines. But people in this forum, at least in my experience, tend to be as forthright and honest in their interactions as possible.

Nothing wrong with making an inquiry in an effort to learn more about the genetic traits you see here. There IS something wrong with publicly accusing someone of lying or intentionally hiding impurities without any real, solid evidence.

This is the first post of yours I've seen, so I don't pretend to know your intentions nor your posting history. I can say, however, that your original post starts of with a sense of curiosity, and quickly drifts towards a feeling of accusation and judgement of intentional dishonesty.

Just my humble opinion... :smash:
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Welcome back tyflier. Long time no see.
 
Folks have asked, I'd like to know too; what do you keep or what are trying to accomplish? A little more detailed but shorter winded answer than "hybrids" would be appreciated. I can only read a book with no pictures so long before I go "Ehh" and pick up a comic ;).
 
chris68 said:
Folks have asked, I'd like to know too; what do you keep or what are trying to accomplish? A little more detailed but shorter winded answer than "hybrids" would be appreciated. I can only read a book with no pictures so long before I go "Ehh" and pick up a comic ;).
Click to expand...
I may be wrong, but so far I think there is just a declaration of intent, rather than any snakes purchased yet.
 
diamondlil said:
I may be wrong, but so far I think there is just a declaration of intent, rather than any snakes purchased yet.
Click to expand...

Ahhh thanks J9, tight lines hon :*)...

So basically Eric I'm "Animal Mother" and your "Joker" and we're in that scene from "Full Metal Jacket". You know, the one where you offer to let me eat your peanuts ;)
 
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wow i have to admit i didnt read this all. To be honest i probably wont either. Seems like there is a world if misinformation out there and I am amazed at how fast a definition will change to suit ones needs. I mean heck there will always be people that dont know or are lacking knowledge on a subject. But you would think if one was to argue so passionately against something. Or hate something with such vigor you would think they would want to know what it is they hate so much.

I laugh at the whole intergrade/hybrid debate. Mostly because the ones making the distinction are completely in their definition. But there is the whole idea that one is supposedly ok and the other one isnt.

In zoology, intergradation is the way in which two distinct subspecies are connected via areas where populations are found that have the characteristics of both. There are two types of intergradation:

Primary intergradation:
Occurs in cases were two subspecies are connected via one or more intermediate populations, each of which are in turn intermediate to their adjacent populations and exhibit more or less the same amount of variability as any other population within the species. Adjacent populations and subspecies are subject to cline intergradation, and in these situations it is usually taken for granted that the clines are causally related (by selection) to environmental gradients.[1]

Secondary intergradation:
When contact between a geographically isolated subspecies is reestablished with the main body of the species or with another isolate subspecies, interbreeding takes place as long as the isolate has not yet evolved an effective set of isolating mechanisms. Consequently, a relatively distinct zone or belt of hybridization will develop depending on the degree of genetic and phenotypic difference that was achieved by the previously isolated subspecies.[1]
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Intergrades are crosses WITHIN a species aka between subspecies. Now there have been a few comments made that suggest otherwise. They are either incorrect in their definition or are lacking in their knowledge of nomenclature.

I find it laughable and quite frankly people are allowed to believe what they want to believe. Whatever is ok with one person is ok to them, I have no grief in that and honestly it isnt worth my time trying to change their minds. If you want to believe intergrades are ok and hybrids are not then so be it. But to change the definition to suit your needs is just stupid.

Any two genera, species or even subspecies bred together in captivity to create a cross is a hybrid plain and simple.

again laughable

10 years ago creamsicles were ok, because the proper definition for intergrade above was used "they were crosses of two SUBSPECIES"

Now creamsicles are ok because some new adjusted definition of intergrade is being used "crosses between two species" I suspect this is being done to justify all the ultra blood in PURE corns. but whatever.

look there is no reason for such hatred, You either like or dislike a snake because you like the looks. Just leave it that simple. You should ALWAYS know its history be it so called pure or hybrid. If the person you are buying from does not know this information maybe you shouldnt be buying the cheapest snake you can find.

I breed hybrids, I am proud of the snakes i produce and not ashamed at all. However at the same time i respect those that want their snakes to be of pure species. So i dont try to breed out the looks of one snake. To me that is a waste of time as creating something different is the whole point.

There is enough hybrid genes already floating around as "pure" as it is we dont need more. Again i laugh as many purists have a ton of these varieties/morphs already in their collections
 
Dan, I have to know! What did you combine to create this gorgeous creature? The hypo I can see, and some corn influence and most likely a milk snake of some sort. I'm making a wild guess with hypo cornduran, but something tells me there is just a little bit of something else in there.

09babies%20177c.jpg
 
Hey Susan how have things been with you.

You stumbled onto another of my secret little projects, I need a couple more years before i start producing them for sale and at that point the mix will start leaking out. I will only share the make up with the buyers in order to try to maintain their investment value. Now if they share the make up then that will be their decision.
 
You can breed whatever you like and it's really none of anyones business. The issue is with ignorant or dishonest breeders who missrepresent what they sell. If you see an advertisement for an albino grayband or thayeri king for example, there's a 99.9% certainty it isn't pure. You need to do your research as a buyer, the same as you would when buying a new camera or television.
 
I'm confused as to whether or not a hybrid is being discussed, an intergrade or a morph.....Crossing two unrelated species, Pantherophis and Lampropeltis for example is a hybrid....crossing a Pantherophis with Elaphe is a hybrid....breeding a Canebrake with a Timber..one being the subspecies of the other is an intergrade...also seen often in overlapping territories of same species... and a morph is a genetic anomaly that is created or comes up. In the original post he was talking about what sounded like a morph.....naturally occuring hybridization does occur in overlapping territories such as cornsnake and rats...However, I object to creating hybrids that would never occur in nature....deliberately breeding corns/rats (an not disclosing), corn/kings, carphondros....balls and god know's what....it's all so wrong. Then add to the fact that some less than ethical breeders fail to tell someone that the snake is a hybrid (especially in the case of rat/corns where you give them a fancy name that in no way lets a new person to the hobby know that it's a hybrid) and you have the makings for a real hate fest! I got lost about half way down the page of the original post...somewhere after the bubblegum snows etc (morphs, not hybrids) and from there it went downhill :)
 
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