If kinking isn't genetic . . .

[carol]

Well when you get it figured out you can also tell me why I have one female who, for the 3rd year in a row had her first clutch go completly bad and went on to lay a second clutch that came out just fine. :headbang:


I do think there are cases of females that don't make good eggs/hatchlings but in my experience it has been enviornmental in the majority of cases. I've had the lowest number of kinks this year than any other year. Same breeding stock. The only thing I can think of is that I did not remoisten the substrate at any point during incubation.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

The only kinked corn I've had never even pipped - I slit the shell after waiting a few days and found out. I was worried this year because my first couple of clutches did have an accidental temperature spike. Got lucky though. For some reason I always thought (maybe from reading it here somewhere) that too-high incubation temps are the most likely culprit.
I've always used small containers to incubate, but with 4-6 air holes melted into the lids. It does mean an occasional (maybe once a week) spritz of water or 2 to keep the moss damp, but I haven't had any problems. I mean, if you are going to check the eggs once a week anyway to let the air exchange, why not just have airholes in them and spritz once a week? Then you won't have to worry about suffocation or anything.

 

[Iguanagirl8662]

I think in some cases kinking can be the result of the incubation environment, and then in some cases kinking can be the result of genetics. Because their's no way to be 100% sure if the kinking is genetic or environmental, I am of the opinion they should be euthanized (and in fact, that is what I do).

I have seen kinking in cornsnakes other then Lavenders, so I really don't think it's a Lavender only kind of thing.

I don't think that is fair, I can understand if they are not healthy, but if they eat, poo, and shed fine then they should be offered to people who want them for pets. I have a kinked normal hatchling and he is like any other hatchling. I can understand not breeding them but if they are healthy other then the kink then I think they should get a chance.

 

[Iguanagirl8662]

Look at it this way...

How, with 100% certainty, do you know those buyers didn't breed the kinked snakes or sell them to someone else?

That is why I am in the euthanization side. I prefer only providing healthy animals into the cornsnake gene pool...Their is no guarantee, unless you keep that snake for the rest of its life, that it's genetics will not eventually be spread.

I do understand euthanizing them, I guess I'm just a bit against it because I have one and he is one of my favorites and the thought of killing him because he has a kink makes me sad, but I do get why people euthanize them.

I think that someone should try to breed them and see if it is genetic which it probably is.

 

[FunkyRes]

That is why I am in the euthanization side. I prefer only providing healthy animals into the cornsnake gene pool...Their is no guarantee, unless you keep that snake for the rest of its life, that it's genetics will not eventually be spread.

I've not had it happen yet - but if you continue to breed the parents that resulted in kinked offspring and it is genetic, then you are still spreading genes that could result in kinked offspring.

Just like if you continue to breed a snake het for stargaze you are spreading the stargaze gene.

Personally I would euthanize kinked babies. I tried to raise a hognose with a kink and I ended up putting him down when he stopped feeding and started to have seizures (kink was in neck and impacted his head position and got worse as he grew, I suspect it was a tumor).

 

[Jessicat]

I do understand euthanizing them, I guess I'm just a bit against it

One way to look at it is part of a more "natural" process snake rearing. Snakes hatch out such large clutches because in the wild not all of them will make it. Breeders produce unnatural amounts of snakes who have much higher chances of living. Culling out any snake that isn't in 100% health is better for the well being of all of our Corn Snakes.

 

[Pasodama]

I think genetics &/or environmental conditions can play a part.
IOW It could be due to genetics or it could be due to environmental factors (where genetics does not play a part).

This is not something limited to snakes. It occurs in the mammalian world as well.
Take horses as just one example ... sometimes genetics plays a part but ... there are times where it is not due to genetics. Malpositioning, in the womb, can cause leg deformities... poor nutrition, of the mare during pregnancy, can cause problems/deformities in the foal ... etc. After birth, some foals can get better and others don't (or they get worse).

While we all know genetics can play a part, it is reasonable to think/believe that environmental factors could, also, be a cause, for deformities, in hatchling snakes.
Such as: With snakes having such a long spine (with many vertebrae that could be affected), some deformities could occur due to positioning, in the egg, during growth ... or the mother snake's nutrition not being "up to par", prior to breeding/laying, could lead to poor fetal development (or, perhaps, even a poor egg shell which leads to problems)... or that outside factors, crucial to development (heat, humidity, etc.), could be a cause for deformities.
Be it in the womb or in the egg, these are critical developmental times.

 

[Roy Munson]

I should also add that I had a number of hatchlings that hatched out perfect, but kinked sometime between hatching and just after their first shed. Those are the examples that I really don't understand...

 

[Pasodama]

I should also add that I had a number of hatchlings that hatched out perfect, but kinked sometime between hatching and just after their first shed. Those are the examples that I really don't understand...

The only things I can think of, off the top of my head, is:

Perhaps unequal growth? (though, actually, I would expect more time, to elapse, for this cause/detection) ... or, perhaps, a kink was missed (undetected), right after birth, but simply found later (by chance or because it worsened & became more detectable)(?).

I, of course, do not have the answer/s but ... those are just some things that first came to mind.

 

[Rich Z]

I should also add that I had a number of hatchlings that hatched out perfect, but kinked sometime between hatching and just after their first shed. Those are the examples that I really don't understand...

Yeah, I've seen this happen quite often. Drives me nuts. My suspicion is that while trying to sex the animals, they struggle and perhaps damage the vertebrae in the process. But the injury doesn't show up till later on, sometimes as much as a year or more later.

I remember years ago Al Zulich refusing to sex his baby green tree pythons because he was convinced that the process injured them and that caused kinks to form later on. I guess you have to admit that subjecting a fragile baby snake to being restrained and sexed is really not something nature for them to go through. But I'm not sure selling all corns as being unsexed only would really fly very well with the buying public. So if this is a contributing cause we will face a substantial dilemma.

As for the "causes" of kinks, I think we have to consider them all. I believe some lines (Lavender, for instance) seem to be prone to kinking more than others. But I have seen kinks, bumps and spinal dips in just about every line I have worked with to some extent, which tends to point to possible environmental causes. But on the other hand, I will say that each clutch of eggs is set up pretty much identically, yet I can have a snake or snakes with kinks in one clutch and yet the ones on both sides, above and below it, do not.

As for what to do with kinked animals, sometimes I sell them at a greatly reduced price. Especially if I discover the kinks later on, and the animal seems to be doing fine regardless. Since the jury is still out on the cause, and in some cases the cause may be unrelated to genetically passed material, then not only will it likely not affect subsequent generations, but it's really not fair to the animal to kill it when it is otherwise healthy enough to survive.

Interesting topic, but unfortunately I have to get packing for Daytona and do some voodoo to try to make Fay go away......

Hope this all makes sense.... I really shouldn't be taking the time to be replying to ANYTHING right now....

 

[Caryl]

I've yet to breed my first clutch, so I can't compare my own experience. I've suffered through various problems in breeding horses and dogs. But if I learned anything at all in embryology, developmental anatomy or genetics classes it's that most physiological problems can be caused genetically AND/OR environmentally. Many genetic deformities mimic those with an environmental cause, and vice versa. Still others are caused by a genetic predisposition to an environmental trigger, as Carol stated.

I expect that, when I get a severely kinked hatchling - and I know it will probably happen - I'll euthanize it. If one has only a minor kink, I might keep it or give it away as pet, with the condition that it be returned to me if the owner no longer wanted it. I know, I know - that can't be enforced.

It's a dilemma for sure, and an interesting topic.

 

[wade]

We haven’t considered prenatal care yet. Could it be due to the mother being calcium deficient at the time the eggs are being formed. Or high or low temperatures while the mother is gravid. Snake eggs are not being fed by an umbilical cord like a mammal but the baby snakes are being fed by a yoke the mothers body produced.

Since there is a definite tendency for lavenders to kink, you have to at least say that genetics is one of the causes. Beyond that, the possibilities give me a headache.

Kinking after hatching is something I haven't seen. Injuries during sexing is something I haven't considered. Interesting.

 

[paulh]

We haven’t considered prenatal care yet. Could it be due to the mother being calcium deficient at the time the eggs are being formed.

It's been documented in animals from trout to humans that breeding females have greater nutritional needs than nonbreeding animals. I'd be astounded if this was not true in snakes.

It's also been documented that deficiency in a number of vitamins and minerals will cause congenital deformities. Calcium might be the first we'd think of, but it's just the tip of the iceberg.

Rat snakes go after baby birds and birds' eggs, not just rodents. Do these provide high nutrition in a small package?

I've got more questions than answers.

 

[Rich Z]

Just for the record, we give all our animals vitamin and calcium supplements. I hope everyone considers doing so as well.

 

[Nanci]

Rich, do you supplement everyone, or just prospective mothers? Year 'round, or prior to and through breeding season? It would be so easy to do.

 

[FunkyRes]

Question on the Lav and kinking link -

With clutches that produce both lavenders and non lavenders, are the lavenders more likely to be kinked?
What about clutches that are het lav but do not produce any lavenders?

 

[Drizzt80]

Just for the record, we give all our animals vitamin and calcium supplements.

I used to do it religiously, but got lazy and let it fall to the wayside due to some of the general consensus being they get enough nutrients from their meals. Bad on me. I'll be going back to regular supplements. FYI for Nanci, when I was doing it regularly, everyone got supplemented.

On another note, the 2nd clutch hatched out another Lava that was kinked. The ice (which is homo Lava btw) that came out was fine and dandy. That makes 7 out of 9 kinks from this season, and all 7 are Lavas. :shrugs: There's one more egg (of 4) that hasn't hatched and I suspect won't, but we'll see tonight I guess.

D80

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

How and what exactly did you / do you guys supplement with?

 

[Tom Tuttle]

I used to do it religiously, but got lazy and let it fall to the wayside due to some of the general consensus being they get enough nutrients from their meals. Bad on me. I'll be going back to regular supplements. FYI for Nanci, when I was doing it regularly, everyone got supplemented.

On another note, the 2nd clutch hatched out another Lava that was kinked. The ice (which is homo Lava btw) that came out was fine and dandy. That makes 7 out of 9 kinks from this season, and all 7 are Lavas. :shrugs: There's one more egg (of 4) that hasn't hatched and I suspect won't, but we'll see tonight I guess.

D80

I've also had problems with the Lava's :headbang:until I outcrossed them. Now I only get 1 kinked in every 5 clutches of Lava.

 

[carol]

I had a lot of kinks in my Lava projects last year, but none this year out of the same parents. :shrugs:
As far as kinking after the fact, I'm sure constantly trying to escape deli cups plays a part as well.