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A blow I'm not sure I can recover from
- Thread starter Kokopelli
- Start date
Nanci
Alien Lover
There are really only two choices: euthanize everyone or test everyone and move forward. It's a difficult, sad situation. But not hopeless.
Lennycorn
Just see the truth
RobbiesCornField
Bring it on.
Oren, I'm hoping for the best in your test results to come.
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
Euthanizing my animals is at the moment not an acceptable solution.
Up to the point of death Phoenix had a good life... she seemed happy, even, maybe?
If only a few contracted the disease and I will have something to continue with, I will probably give them to responsible new keepers who have no other snakes- I will have them sign a contract stating that these snakes are carriers of a disease and are not to be bred nor sold on and that they will be held accountable if the terms are breached.
Another alternative I know of is that there's a zoo up north that is currently dealing with Crypto so they can join that group and be cared for.
If the majority of my animals, or all of them, are sick, then I will care for them for as long as I am able without bringing new snakes or breeding them.
All snakes, and humans for that matter, will die in the end... some sooner, some later, allot of them have a shorter timer on them than others... that doesn't mean they should be euthanized.
As far as I am concerned, Euthanasia exists to spare needless agony from a dying snake... as long as symptoms do not show... I have every intention of treating them as what they are to me- as friends.
Up to the point of death Phoenix had a good life... she seemed happy, even, maybe?
If only a few contracted the disease and I will have something to continue with, I will probably give them to responsible new keepers who have no other snakes- I will have them sign a contract stating that these snakes are carriers of a disease and are not to be bred nor sold on and that they will be held accountable if the terms are breached.
Another alternative I know of is that there's a zoo up north that is currently dealing with Crypto so they can join that group and be cared for.
If the majority of my animals, or all of them, are sick, then I will care for them for as long as I am able without bringing new snakes or breeding them.
All snakes, and humans for that matter, will die in the end... some sooner, some later, allot of them have a shorter timer on them than others... that doesn't mean they should be euthanized.
As far as I am concerned, Euthanasia exists to spare needless agony from a dying snake... as long as symptoms do not show... I have every intention of treating them as what they are to me- as friends.
Jeeze man, that's pretty rough news. Really, my heart goes out to you. I used to be scared to death something like that would happen in my collection. That's why I closed the colony completely to new animals. I just couldn't take the risk.
Do you have any idea on the actual source of the infection? Any new animals come into your possession recently?
Hope the rest of your animals get a clean bill of health.
Do you have any idea on the actual source of the infection? Any new animals come into your possession recently?
Hope the rest of your animals get a clean bill of health.
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
Thank you Rich, means allot.
I agree completely... I used to think that I could possibly pull off being a breeder and possibly earn some measure of living from it... that would dictate a very big room, hundreds of vivs and so forth... I thought I'd gradually get there.
This experience showed me however that as it stands right now, Herp medicine is too underdeveloped to counter the risk of Crypto/IBD infection. Especially here where importation of snakes is more dominant that even breeding... and the people who do import do so more for financial reasons than anything else... without verifying the source all that much...
Also, starting over, here, is way more expansive than it would be in the US... it is simply not a viable way to live as far as I am concerned... I need more stability.
Crypto you can at least diagnose a healthy looking animal with... IBD would have been even worse.
I spent allot of money on my collection... but it is still at a point where I can make a "U-turn" and go to a different direction... and that's what I plan on doing. If I will have enough healthy animals to continue breeding... great, but I won't be accumulating snakes as I thought I would- and I would DEFINITELY conduct a fecal test to every single snake I consider inserting if/when I have a Crypto-free collection.
Quite a few animals entered my collection I'm afraid... I turned my attention to Central American Boas so allot of my former Boas went to others and I got new ones instead.
I do not know, nor can I know what snake was "Ground Zero" as it were(all the likely ones are actually established, very vital looking adults)... I plan on chain testing snakes that were in contact with Phoenix during the last breeding season... See who is positive, and continue from that point on.
Contracting Crypto is not as easy as some think... there's allot of fear around the disease and people think it can transfer by simple contact but the truth is that fecal-oral contact needs to occur- consuming water that were pooped in, or actually eating a bit of poop, are the ways to contract the disease.
Therefore, there's still hope.
If anything, I am sure that my experience will be useful for future keepers.
It is still, a very painful blow emotionally because the whole idea of keeping and breeding snakes came from a very deep place in my heart... and it had just received a very strong, and possibly fatal, blow.
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
Keeping snakes is very much a part of who and what I am... I won't be stopping anytime soon.
However, I do have an obligation to see if any more snakes of mine are infected- I will be testing 4 animals that have been in direct contact with Phoenix for various periods of time- for every animal that returns positive, I will test the animals most likely to be linked to it.
Each animal will be tested three times in a commercial lab via fast-acid test.
Wish me luck, I will keep you posted as things progress.
However, I do have an obligation to see if any more snakes of mine are infected- I will be testing 4 animals that have been in direct contact with Phoenix for various periods of time- for every animal that returns positive, I will test the animals most likely to be linked to it.
Each animal will be tested three times in a commercial lab via fast-acid test.
Wish me luck, I will keep you posted as things progress.
MegF.
That's for sale???
I'm crossing my fingers for you. Quite a blow to you and I hope you can get it under control as quickly as possible. Kudos to you for stepping up to the plate and not only saying you are having this issue, but are willing to go the extra steps to see if any of your other animals are bad as well.
Yeah man, I hear you.
One of the reasons I closed my collection to new animals a long while back was because of an account I heard from a veterinarian friend I had at the time. He told me (not mentioning any names, of course) about a guy who he had been contracted to inspect his collection and test for pathogens. What he found out was that the entire collection was pretty much completely infected with crypto. He told the guy that the best course of action would be to just euthanize them all and start over as there was nothing that could be done to cure those animals. And even asymptomatic animals could be forever carriers of crypto.
Well, a few weeks passed and this vet happened to be at a local herp show, and was quite disappointed to see that same individual at that show SELLING off all of his animals claiming health reasons. Yeah, it WAS health reasons, for certain, but not the kind those prospective buyers thought. Certainly everyone who bought those animals was bringing a surprise home along with them. I'm sure that vet was biting his tongue clean through to not say something to the show promoter, but what could he do in his position? Personally, I would have blown the whistle on the guy, but that's just me.
Anyway, after hearing that nightmare story, I just shut down getting animals from ANYONE. In the last few years before I retired, I bought animals from only two people, and even then those animals were in quarantine for a LONG time.
I'm glad to see that you are handling this in an ethical manner. Unfortunately there are far too many people out there who would not respond in such a manner with the news that you got.
One of the reasons I closed my collection to new animals a long while back was because of an account I heard from a veterinarian friend I had at the time. He told me (not mentioning any names, of course) about a guy who he had been contracted to inspect his collection and test for pathogens. What he found out was that the entire collection was pretty much completely infected with crypto. He told the guy that the best course of action would be to just euthanize them all and start over as there was nothing that could be done to cure those animals. And even asymptomatic animals could be forever carriers of crypto.
Well, a few weeks passed and this vet happened to be at a local herp show, and was quite disappointed to see that same individual at that show SELLING off all of his animals claiming health reasons. Yeah, it WAS health reasons, for certain, but not the kind those prospective buyers thought. Certainly everyone who bought those animals was bringing a surprise home along with them. I'm sure that vet was biting his tongue clean through to not say something to the show promoter, but what could he do in his position? Personally, I would have blown the whistle on the guy, but that's just me.
Anyway, after hearing that nightmare story, I just shut down getting animals from ANYONE. In the last few years before I retired, I bought animals from only two people, and even then those animals were in quarantine for a LONG time.
I'm glad to see that you are handling this in an ethical manner. Unfortunately there are far too many people out there who would not respond in such a manner with the news that you got.
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
Rich- Yup, that pretty much what happened here... Phoenix got the disease from -some- source. I understand that at least one person in Israel has a confirmed fatality due to Crypto and said nothing about it... I know others who had many fatalities and did not step up to check what's going on.
I am still at a stage where I was building my "core breeding colony"- and since this is Israel... bringing snakes from all over the place is the only way to go.
There does exist a possibility that Phoenix is the only infected animal because I do practice a hygiene protocol... but I am not about to just assume that that's the case.
I hope that within a week or two the first batch of samples can be tested for the first round.
It will be around a month-two before I will be able to breathe lightly again it seems.
I am still at a stage where I was building my "core breeding colony"- and since this is Israel... bringing snakes from all over the place is the only way to go.
There does exist a possibility that Phoenix is the only infected animal because I do practice a hygiene protocol... but I am not about to just assume that that's the case.
I hope that within a week or two the first batch of samples can be tested for the first round.
It will be around a month-two before I will be able to breathe lightly again it seems.
ShenziSixaxis
Sticking To The Ceiling
Been trying to think of something to say for the past few days and I'm still drawing blanks. All I'm pretty sure about is all those photos you've posted over the years helped influence my decision to buy a young Nic boa last month.
Sounds like 2012 is going to be one crappy year for you.
Sounds like 2012 is going to be one crappy year for you.
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
It definitely didn't start out great but... not all is lost.
IBD would have been a far far worse diagnosis- at least Crypto you can diagnose and rule out living animals reliably... with IBD, if you have one, the ethical route is to consider the entire group infected.
Crypto, being a parasite, is hardy and annoying, but is easier to deal with than the IBD virus(or whatever we end up discovering it is).
All will be well in the long run... if anything, this really reminded me of how interesting medicine to be, and the horrible lack of knowledge here in Israel... I am looking into taking relevant academic courses in Biology
IBD would have been a far far worse diagnosis- at least Crypto you can diagnose and rule out living animals reliably... with IBD, if you have one, the ethical route is to consider the entire group infected.
Crypto, being a parasite, is hardy and annoying, but is easier to deal with than the IBD virus(or whatever we end up discovering it is).
All will be well in the long run... if anything, this really reminded me of how interesting medicine to be, and the horrible lack of knowledge here in Israel... I am looking into taking relevant academic courses in Biology
MegF.
That's for sale???
Was she quarantined prior to bringing her in contact with the rest of your collection? Just curious. I quarantine a minimum of 3 months for animals received from people I know and 6 months for any others. Fortunately the only thing I've ever had show up was mites and the single animal was treated and of course they didn't infect the rest of my animals.
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
Meg, Phoenix has been a part of my collection for the past 3 years. It is possible she brought it with her as a sub-clinical carrier or she got infected along the way.
Hypothesizing at this stage is premature as I see several possible sources, all of which can be just as valid.
More tests are necessary and even than I am not sure if conclusions of origin can really be made.
Hypothesizing at this stage is premature as I see several possible sources, all of which can be just as valid.
More tests are necessary and even than I am not sure if conclusions of origin can really be made.
dionythicus
Kiss My Hearse
I cannot express my distress and sympathy for what you are going through. I am hoping that you are blessed with positive results in your other snakes.
From what I have researched, I see IBD as the opposite. It does not necessarily mean every snake is infected. So far it had been relagated primarily to boids, but a few, rare cases exist in colubrids. Crypto is far more sinister, IMO. I have a boa who came from parents who tested positive for IBD, but mine came back with a clean biopsy result. My vet is confident that he is completely clear of IBD. Crypto is a bigger concern for him. Either way, both diseases are devastating.
From what I have researched, I see IBD as the opposite. It does not necessarily mean every snake is infected. So far it had been relagated primarily to boids, but a few, rare cases exist in colubrids. Crypto is far more sinister, IMO. I have a boa who came from parents who tested positive for IBD, but mine came back with a clean biopsy result. My vet is confident that he is completely clear of IBD. Crypto is a bigger concern for him. Either way, both diseases are devastating.
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
We do not have the means to diagnose IBD properly other than post-mortem... There is a lack of vets I would trust with the procedure of removing a biopsy.
Both are rather horrible... but since I keep Boas exclusively, I'd take Crypto to IBD any day.
Thank you,
Oren.
Both are rather horrible... but since I keep Boas exclusively, I'd take Crypto to IBD any day.
Thank you,
Oren.